UBT
I understand your reasoning in wanting to trade Elvis but the front office does not agree! they are going to keep him for the next 2 yrs and then once the TV money starts coming in they give him the money he wants. weather we agree or not that is what they are showing us.
Terry C.
JD and crew could have ran the bill up to 175 on Grienkie and the Dodgers would have out bid us! Plus the deal they made is all one sided in Grienkies favor.
Also
the Rangers and Tampa are working from the same playbook Rangers just have more money. Jimmy Johnson said it best "you pay good players good money and great players great money. the problem comes when you start paying good player great money."

why didn't they just trade him for upton? you have profar waiting to take his place so i don't see the point in keeping them both

Joe C. writes: I understand your reasoning in wanting to trade Elvis but the front office does not agree! they are going to keep him for the next 2 yrs and then once the TV money starts coming in they give him the money he wants. weather we agree or not that is what they are showing us.

First off, you don't know this. The Rangers have been so unpredictable in the past that they could trade Elvis in five minutes for all we know. I also don't understand how their unwillingness to trade Andrus this offseason absolutely signifies they are going to keep him the next two years and pay him at some point. Whether you agree or not, it's still stupid to pay a guy $150+ million when they have a cheaper, more talented replacement waiting in the wings.

JD and crew could have ran the bill up to 175 on Grienkie [...].

No they didn't.

Joe C wrote: "Jimmy Johnson said it best 'you pay good players good money and great players great money. the problem comes when you start paying good player great money.'"

Exactly. And Elvis is a good but not great player.

Eric
Grienkie first I said they could have not that they did.

on Elvis the FO could do a lot of things but from what they have done and said it should lead you to believe he won't be traded. durring the upton thing the rangers said no to either Elvis or Profar. Well why would they do that if they wanted to trade them. Am I saying under no circumstancewill either Elvis or Profar be traded.... NO I'm not. but anything outside of Price or stanton is a non-starter with either of those 2.

UTB
Ok Elvis is a 24 yr old 2 time all star, what would make him a great player in your eyes? Power? does he need to hit 20 hr's a yr before you think he's a Great SS? How many of those guys are out there? then tell me how many of those guys can carry Elvis's glove when it comes to defense?

One other thing I forgot Eric who is this "more talented replacement" the rangers have? Profar? I've said this before on this site. Maybe just MAYBE we should let the guy play a season in the bigs before we start writing his HOF speech!

Elvis has been an All-Star. That doesn't make him a great player.

Elvis would be a "great" player if he didn't have a limited offensive ceiling. As of now, he has a career:

wRC+ of 86
OPS of .727.

Regardless of his position and defensive prowess, that does not equal a great player. He has great speed - but other than that - he has no well above-average offensive tool. He doesn't hit for a high average, he doesn't have an elite OBP and his SLG is about as weak as it gets. Luckily for him, he plays a position that is currently pathetic from an offensive standpoint.

IMO, Elvis is a good player with a limited offensive ceiling.

One other thing I forgot Eric who is this "more talented replacement" the rangers have? Profar? I've said this before on this site. Maybe just MAYBE we should let the guy play a season in the bigs before we start writing his HOF speech!

Suppose we just lived in darkness and neglected scouting reports. Suppose we didn't have access to computers to be able to track minor league prospects. Suppose Elvis Andrus was so good that it didn't matter what happened to Jurickson Profar.

Problem is, in 2013, the access we, as fans, possess, is dwarfed only by scouts, and scouts universally say Jurickson Profar is the top position prospect in baseball. He has a better hit tool than Elvis, a better on base tool, and much, much more power. To boot, he's also a top-flight defender. Not on the level of Elvis Andrus, but certainly far superior to league average. Elvis will probably never be a 5-win shortstop. Jurickson Profar with his bat might be a 5-win SS in his 2nd season in the Major Leagues, given that Andrus will be our shortstop at least through the 2013 season.

If Tampa had the same monetary situation, including our market, they'd be in the AL Playoffs yearly.

Elvis dose not have to be a 5 win SS. He's becoming a very rounded all-around smart player.
Stats read what U want them to read. Baseball is so much about uncharted intangibles.

Suppose we do live in houses with electricity and running water.
Maybe even a satellite dish with mlb channel.

Maybe we've seen a lot of can't miss prospects......miss.

Terry C:

Four years ago, MY had just won the GG at SS and Elvis Andrus had never played above AA ball. The Texas FO then forced veteran MY to move to third-base to accommodate the unproven Andrus.

I'm assuming that you were completely against this move.

You know what they say about assuming!

Eric
How many "can't miss" prospects miss? not saying the Profar is one of those guys but the only place he has proved he can do it is in AA.

UTB
First off comparing the MY to Elvis situation to the Elvis to Profar is apples to oranges! not the same thing MY was never a good fielder where do you think PADMY came from!! the front office and Wash both knew the pitching staff NEEDED someone like Elvis playing short so they could pitch to contact. when MY was young he was a good second baseman but he was never a good SS or 3rd. he didn't make errors so he got the GG but he had no range either.
And when you talk about Elvis's OBP and Slugging I wonder how much those numbers would change if he wasn't laying down a sac bunt in the 3rd inning? I don't think it's so much his bat as how he is used, if he were hitting 1st or even if he were in the 7,8,9 hole and were allowed to swing away I think all of his number would go up dramaticly.

You guys[??] need to move on. You are starting to bore us.

My last post was a friendly--if somewhat sarcastic -- jab at the boy wonder.
Just couldn't resist after his condescending "supposed we just lived in darkness" remark.

utb--i started this thread and i'm the guy that thinks we should pay Elvis.

I also believe that Jurickson Profar is an enormous talent. I have seen a lot of prospects go bust--this kid is the real deal.
I do trust the scouts and FO.

The obvious conventional wisdom is too trade the Boris client now and give Profar the ss position.
But the FO wouldn't do it for Upton.
Evidently smarter people than me haven't found the proper solution.

I have advocated paying Elvis and trading Profar. Profar is the #1 trade chip we have. Any conversation about Stanton or Price has to include him.

Elvis can't fetch that type return--no one is giving a ransom for a Boris client headed to FA.
But we still have time.

Why do we have to trade either one of them?
Just maybe we need to keep both these players.
They are both great players in my estimation.

I would love to see them side by side for the next decade.
.
Put Kinsler in right field some and use him as the super utility player.

Kins had a bad ankle-remember. Put him in RF and you just think you saw bad body language last year.

Terry, my intention was to be condescending, because I just don't see how someone in their right mind would vouch for such an antiquated business approach.

Keith Law said the other day, talking to Ben and Skin, that trading Jurickson Profar for Giancarlo Stanton or David Price -- straight-up -- would be a bad move for the Rangers. 6 years of a premium offensive shortstop who can also play plus defense is an invaluable commodity to own.

On the flip side of the coin, trading two cheap years of a player who will not be returning either way, seems elementary. Basic math. If you want a David Price or a Giancarlo Stanton, you trade Elvis now, recoup a couple blue chip prospects (of either Tampa or Miami's liking), and flip them to one of those two clubs as part of a mammoth prospect package.

Like utb said: Four years ago, MY had just won the GG at SS and Elvis Andrus had never played above AA ball. The Texas FO then forced veteran MY to move to third-base to accommodate the unproven Andrus.

This is the way the Rangers do business. They lock the players up they can get on the cheap (Ian @5/70; Harrison @5/55; Holland @5/28.5; Darvish @6/56), and if the player they are negotiating with isn't worth it (C.J./Josh Hamilton/Napoli/Andrus), they will let them walk.

Paraphrasing Eric, do the math. Multiple years of Profar at league minimums and arbitration increases versus Elvis at 15mm per year post FA. Whatever risk Profar does not reach his desired potential is dwarfed by these salary differences.

Thinking that a trade will be available at the summer deadline is also contrary to the math. Every game that passes diminishes Elvis' trade value because the passing time represents time Elvis cannot play for his new team. The failure to close on Upton using Elvis will go down in Rangers history as a dangerous miscalculation by JD and the FO.

In 2012, Andrus was:
- the 11th ranked SS in offensive production (based on wRC+)
- the 4th ranked SS in fielding (based on UZR)
- the 5th ranked SS in WAR
- the 36th ranked player overall in terms of WAR

Being one of the top 40 players in baseball = a good player. But that does not equal an elite player.

Who am i supposed to believe---You ?
or my lying eyes?

Why do we continue to live in this world where Andrus for Upton was even plausible? You do realize Andrus had less time til FA than did Upton. You do realize it took getting Prado to work out a nice extension to trade Upton.

Can we get off the Andrus for Upton scenario? It wouldn't have worked for AZ.

You can disagree with me all you want but facts are facts. My post included a list of factual information, information that just about everyone in baseball uses to evaluate the value of a player.

When arbitration hearings are held, the awards are based on statistics - not some intangible qualities that cannot be identified. The same goes for just about any type of valuation that you want to conduct.

If you want to trust your "eyes" over verified statistics to tell you how Elvis stacks up against the rest of the league, go for it. But there is not much logic behind that approach.

Nerd turds

Why do we continue to live in this world where Andrus for Upton was even plausible? You do realize Andrus had less time til FA than did Upton. You do realize it took getting Prado to work out a nice extension to trade Upton.

That last sentence is not the case at all. In baseball, you don't trade players contingent on extensions after the trade. Toronto didn't want to give up d'Arnaud without a Dickey extension in the bag beforehand, but Arizona can't justify the deal just because they worked out a deal with Prado.

Like you said, Elvis has less time till FA than Upton. Combine that with Jurickson Profar waiting in the wings -- more developed, and at the same age Andrus was when he broke in to the Major Leagues -- and you're looking at a move the Rangers should have made.