What is your opinion of the A.J. Pierzynski signing?
MJH on accountability
So let's make this into a math equation using your words Romro:
"An incredibly talented RF who hasn't been able to really put it all together for more than one season" = "A top 10 prospect in all of baseball who is a plus defender at 3b and shows plenty of power" + "a young sp with a TORP ceiling who hasn't put it all together for multiple seasons but is signed to a team friendly long term deal" + "Top pitching prospect not far from ML ready who has drawn comparisons to Johan Santana and has TORP ceiling"
The math just doesn't add up my friend.
Doesn't add up? Please show me how.
I guess what I'm saying is how is a talented COF bat who hasn't been able to put it together for more than one season worth so much more than a young incredibly talented lefty power pitcher who has demonstrated his ability to be dominant with a TORP celing, a power hitting plus defending 3b who is a top 10 prospect in all of baseball, and a premier lefty pitching prospect who draws comparison to Johan Santana and is near ML ready.
Please explain to me how that's a lowball offer.
Romro, its a fair package to a Rangers homer who only looks at one side.
And like i said, I wouldn't give up Profar for him. But for what you have seen Kansas City give up for James Shields, I am telling you don't expect anything less for Upton, who could easily be MVP caliber.
If you look around and comparable trades, you will see what the asking price IS for a hot commodity.
At this point in time, prospects just aren't as valuable as you think they are. If the Rangers believe in Profar they will keep him and not get Upton.
Glad you have to continue to be a jackball and demean my "baseball knowledge" in your answers. Look at it from all sides. Why would AZ give up the hottest trade chip on the market for no less return that what TB got for James freaking Shields?
You love trades so much, why don't you tell us?
I did tell you, AZ won't do it without Profar.
But apparently that is stupid and wrong.
I guess what I'm saying is how is a talented COF bat who hasn't been able to put it together for more than one season worth so much more than a young incredibly talented lefty power pitcher who has demonstrated his ability to be dominant with a TORP celing, a power hitting plus defending 3b who is a top 10 prospect in all of baseball, and a premier lefty pitching prospect who draws comparison to Johan Santana and is near ML ready. Please explain to me how that's a lowball offer. -Romro212000
Please explain to me how that's a lowball offer. -Romro212000
I think it is a lowball offer from AZ to only include Upton in that. You're looking at a two TORP upside pitchers (including one who has utterly dominated a WS game and appeared to be rounding into form before getting getting ill and losing 15lbs in a matter of weeks, something he never quite recovered from last season) + a top 10 prospect with plus defense, playing a more premium defensive position than COFer.
You're also looking at 5-6 years of team control for Olt, 5-6 for Perez, and 4-6 years of control on Holland, if very friendly team options are exercised (~$11 million per year for the last two). All this for only 3 years of Upton who will make more than any of these players in any 18 years of team control years on their current contracts, with the exception of Hollands team option years, which are close in AAV.
Maybe you could talk me into Olt + one of Perez/Holland + low level prospect, but not both. That, in my opinion, is a drastic overpay by the Rangers.
@BZOk I agree with you. I misunderstood what you were saying.
@ilovetradesKC gave up way too much for shields and Davis. I don't know what planet you're living on but BZ and I lay it out pretty well. If you honestly think that Upton is worth more than that package then its obvious which among us is without a clue.
Pretty obvious to much readers on her who doesnt have a clue. His name rhymes with Homro.
I think it is tough to describe a player as a hot commodity when he can/will veto trades to more than 10% of the market. There is also the question of what happens to said commodity when things like "unmotivated, selfish, and needs change of scenery" start to work their way into scouting reports.
Right, wrong or indifferent the situation in Arizona combined with the no-trade exercise right is perceived to negatively affect Upton's value. There will be serious kudos to Towers if he can overcome those obstacles to make a move that is on par with a couple of previously mentioned deals that set "market value."
I think we can argue the true value of Upton all we want, but Towers has put himself in a corner here. He has basically made it absolutely necessary for them to trade Upton. By already failing to sign him and signing other replacements, they have a disgruntled player and they've already added his replacement. Then he went and did his best to identify the ceiling for his value with the Seattle trade debacle. I think it's fair to say no other team in the majors would or has any reason to match or come close to this package. Towers gave up his biggest leverage in basically forcing the trade of Upton.
It doesn't really matter what his trade value is if he essentially must be traded. It then comes down to who will offer the best package. It seems most likely Texas' is offering the best package but Towers wants to hold out as long as possible to see if anyone else comes along. I think Upton will be traded just before spring training starts and not likely before that unless Towers gets a very good offer.
Ah so the troll creates a new alter ego by the name of Billy V. Why has someone not banned that faggot?
Basically, if Upton had more than 1 year of super stardom, if there were no questions about Upton's attitude, if Towers had not already tried and failed to trade him and if Towers had not already signed his replacement then I think Upton would be worth more than a package of Olt + Holland or Olt + Perez and low-level prospect. But all of that is the current situation which every team is factoring into a proposal for Upton.
How many times do I have to say!?!?!?
I DONT THINK UPTON IS WORTH MORE THAN THAT PACKAGE!!!
I don't think Rafael Soriano is worth 14M a year, I don't think Josh Hamilton is worth 25M a year. But someone out there will pay that price for them.
I'm simply saying, why would AZ accept any less than what KC got???? They would be looked at as foolish.
They have the hottest trade commodity and should get an exorbitant return for what they have. Is it fair? Not at all, but would you want fair if you had Justin Upton? No, you would look to rob another team of prospects.
Do you read any of what is written?
One thing that some of you iare missing is that Upton is a proven, all-star caliber player while Profar is a prospect. How many top prospects (across baseball, not just the Rangers) have been busts? I'm not saying Profar will be a bust BUT the odds are not in his favor. Upton, meanwhile, is the real deal. He would rake in this ballpark and he is a proven commodity that still isn't at his prime.I'm not behind a Profar for Upton trade... but I think we may be over-valueing a 19 yr old kid that's proven nothing at the MLB level. He could become the next Elvis with power... or he could become the next Ruben Mateo, Joaquin Arias, or the countless others everyone thought would become a star but didn't... we just don't know!
Well so far AZ has had trouble getting teams to drastically overpay for Upton for some reason. A commodity is only worth what someone will pay for it. So far the only team willing to offer a stupidly exorbitant package for Upton has reportedly been Seattle and Upton blocked that deal so its a no go. Could be wrong, but it looks like the rangers and maybe the braves are the only teams really in contention for Upton, and both have refused to now to Tower's ridiculous demands, which hurts AZ's bargaining power
@pabloProfar is the #1 prospect in all of baseball. That's not just a hot prospect. Every scout touts him as a can't miss prospect. We have no guarantees of what is going to happen with Elvis and cannot afford to hamstring ourselves and leave ourselves without a shortstop. Yes, Upton has proven he can be an all star player at the ML level, but not consistently. Profar plays at a premium position. Upton does not, and he's only under control for 3 yrs.
How many times out of 10 have we said "so-and-so" free agent or tradeable player's value has dropped and yet there is always a team waiting in the wings to overpay in some form or capacity?
If I were to be snide, I would throw in a "shows me how much your baseball knowledge is" comment.
Look, Rangers are smart in offering what they are.
Diamondbacks are smart in not accepting what the Rangers are offering, because then teams like the Mariners who aren't even in the trade talks offer some outlandish package.
Why would AZ accept less than what KC got?... because they will probably have to. KC didn't have to make that trade, which is a huge leveraging chip. AZ have put themselves in a position where they pretty much have to trade Upton. Therefore, they're basically looking for the best available package... It seems to be Texas. I don't think Towers is stupid for holding out on the Upton deal until he makes sure he has the best offer. On the other hand, based on the knowledge available, I would not have made some of the moves Towers has up until now, which have essentially decreased Upton's value.
We are all reading what you are writing, but I don't think you're comprehending what we're trying to say. Upton is not worth Profar in this market and it's Towers fault that he is not worth Profar!
Look at it this way, you are the Diamondbacks, you have excess in the outfield, you are going up against Cain, Bumgarner & Lincecum in one main opponent, and Beckett, Greinke & Kershaw on the other, you have Cahill, Kennedy & Miley that are good but do not measure up in comparison. You signed McCarthy, but if you could land a solid 5th, you may match up with quality depth. So if you want to win now, find a solid starting pitcher. Who wants to trade with you, Texas? What do they have? Well there is Darvish and Harrison and Holland. The Rangers will not trade you Darvish after costing them so much. Harrison seems to be a winner, but he has only two years left to free agency. Holland just signed a reasonable contract through 2017, he has a fantastic arm but has not been fully successful in the AL. How will his stuff transfer over to the NL. Call texas back, if they are willing to trade us Holland and an outfielder prospect above A level to replace losing Upton in right who could be ready this year or next, you have a deal. Final agreement: Upton for Holland and Beltre.
Btw, until we get information to prove otherwise I think the proposed Seattle trade was a stupid ploy to try and force the Rangers' hand and have them up their package. And similarly the Rangers saying they are moving on from Upton is a ploy by the Rangers to say "go ahead and trade him elsewhere, we already made our final offer."
Meh, I am a Rangers homer and I am a big believer in Justin Upton too....But no way Profar is included in any permutation for Justin Upton. Even if they both were under control for the same amount of time that would be true. Top SS > Top Corner outfielder under the best of times, and sure Profar might not end up being amazing but its more likely than Upton putting it all together during his final 3 years of team control.
Olt, Perez and Holland would honestly feel like too much for Upton too. I would stop at Olt, Perez and another good name from the lower tiers of the farm. I don't think its being a homer to say the Diamondbacks would probably still come out better on that deal if Olt is the 3B he can be. In any case it would hurt, and in any case deals like that are supposed to hurt for both sides or they're not worth doing. Its interesting to follow at least.
I KNOW UPTON IS NOT WORTH PROFARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
This is obviously a breakdown in communication, but you asked why would AZ accept less than KC got, and I answered because they have to. They may WANT Profar, but I don't think they realistically expect a return like that. I think you've been saying this, but I was trying to elaborate on why they won't be getting that kind of package and shouldn't be expecting it.
Like it. Thanks for the good input. I think we agree on the fact he is not worth Profar but I still believe someone out there will overpay or overtrade if you will. Hopefully I am proved wrong, I would love to have him.
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