What is your opinion of the A.J. Pierzynski signing?
MJH on accountability
To Eric: whatever you're smokin, remember to puff, puff, pass. Don't bogart it, dude.
You assume Upton can post 20 WAR in three years but you voice doubts about Stanton posting 25 WAR in four years. That's effing stupid. Be optimistic with your WAR projections for both players, or be pessimistic for both. You act like Upton's move from Arizona's ballpark to Arlington will be a magical elixir, but you ignore the fact that Stanton's change from the Miami ballpark to Arlington would be a much more drastically favorable move. And that's before we even get to the part about Upton being entirely unable to carry Stanton's jock.
If Upton comes to Texas, he will be The Next Nelson Cruz. Good but not great.
If Stanton comes to Texas, he will be the next... well shit, he will be The First Giancarlo Stanton. Quite possibly the best pure power hitter this franchise has ever had.
"If Stanton comes to Texas, he will be the next... well shit, he will be The First Giancarlo Stanton. Quite possibly the best pure power hitter this franchise has ever had."Agreed.
"If Upton comes to Texas, he will be The Next Nelson Cruz. Good but not great."There have been a lot of crazy things said in this thread, but this may be the craziest. I have said it and I will continue to say it, if I had the choice of having Profar and Upton or Giancarlo Stanton, I would take Profar and Upton and run as far away as I can from Loria and that thing they claim to be a front office.
Juricksoon, I understand why you don't want to trade Profar. Your handle says it all. I think the kid will be a special player and I too hope we keep him.
But I'm not getting into the trade scenarios, pondering what it would take to acquire Upton/Stanton. I'm simply taking issue with eric reining's assumption that Upton is Stanton's equal or arguably even better. THAT is the craziest thing said in this thread. Reining says Upton is good for 20 WAR in three years but Stanton is doubtful to be worth 25 WAR in four years. That's idiotic.
In the last four years Upton has 13 WAR. That includes his best season of 2011, which I don't believe he will ever duplicate. Angel Pagan has more WAR than Upton in the past four years. Yeah, Angel Pagan.
Don't trot out the "but Upton was battling injury" excuse. He obviously was healthy enough to keep playing. Other players still post better WAR totals in seasons where they play through injuries. Josh Hamilton comes to mind. Last year Stanton battled knee problems and still posted 5.4 WAR in 501 plate apps. Upton posted 2.1 WAR in 628 plate apps. It's not even a contest.
I'll take a gamble on Upton if it only costs us Olt. I'm not too bullish on Olt. If we deal Elvis for Upton, then it's a stupid move. I think JD agrees with me, or else Elvis would already be wearing a Diamondbacks uni. If you're ready to deal Elvis and hand the SS job to Profar, I can understand that. But Elvis is easily worth more than Upton.
@Eric U So Crazy
Best forum handle, ever, in my opinion.
However, lost in your senseless diatribe is the fact that I did not anoint 20.0 WAR to Upton. I gave an extremely loose range, which had a baseline of 14.0 WAR. That's about 4.7 fWAR/season, which I don't find to be terribly unrealistic, given that Upton has yet to enter his prime years -- another fact you're completely ignoring.
Also, I never said I do not think Stanton can produce 25 wins in 4 years. I said I'm not comfortable banking on him to produce 25 wins in 4 years. Giancarlo Stanton is a better hitter than Justin Upton. I'm not arguing that at all. The basis for my stance is that 9 combined years of Profar and Upton is more valuable than 6 combined years of Elvis and Stanton. I'm looking at this strictly through my sabermetric goggles, and and we're dealing with 4 All Star-caliber players, three of which could wield MVP's down the road.
Contrary to your assertion that Upton has produced 13 WAR the last 4 years, I'd recommend you start getting your facts from Fangraphs. It's more accurate over there, especially if we're talking about what to expect moving forward. Upton has actually generated 16.7 fWAR the last 4 years, and, again, he's still only 25 years old until next August. For you to make futile attempts at blowing holes through my argument, by then saying something like "If Upton comes to Texas, he will be The Next Nelson Cruz. Good but not great," pretty much sums up how blinded you are.
Combine ALL OF THIS with the idea that, if the Rangers were to acquire Stanton, it would take Profar +++, as compared to Upton, who would likely only take Andrus, and I think my position is even more justified.
Something to keep in mind about trading for Stanton. It's going to cost more than Profar. Throw in the top tier of Rangers prospects as well. Guys like Perez and Olt. It'll take a lot.
Stanton would be amazing in Arlington, but his cost would cripple the team. Stanton's price will be Profar and most of the farm's best prospects. Extending Elvis will be costly. Yes, his talent/value springs from his defense, but you have 3 major market teams, NYY, LAD and LAA without quality SSs. Last, but terribly important, is the value of diversification. Profar and the farm is worth more than Stanton. With a single player you run the risk of injury. In Stanton's case this risk extends to nearly every position, as the injury hedges inherent in a quality farm system (either outright substitutes or trade currency for substitutes) will be in Miami.
I don't know what is going on with Elvis and AZ, but the Rangers need an outfielder and will likely lose Elvis in 2 years. If there is a better OF option out there from a team in need of Elvis, then go in that direction. I don't see that opportunity here today or on the horizon. I will miss the Stanton HR spectacles, but Profar+Upton+a farm is better than Elvis+extension dollars+Stanton and no farm.
Stanton for all his immense talents, and before totally proclaiming the second coming of the BABE or BARRY w/out roids best to take his numbers into true context. He has yet to break even these initial barriers: bat .300 or >, cross the 40 HR threshold into HOF power territory, or even the more modest 100 RBI BARRIER [even LaRussa's 'Village Idiot", even after all these years still can not believe he said that about an x- Ranger, did that]. He is young, but has played full time since coming up in June 2010. And above all, the last 2 seasons with less than 1000 at bats has over 300 strikeouts, this says he does have holes, actually something that could even be exploited more in the AL. He has the 5 -tools, but so does Engel Beltre [and he has not even made it yet to AAA}, and could just as easy become the next David Kingman instead of the next Barry Bonds. Kingman was a solid pro who belted 442 homers in his career, but if this proves to be Gian's true value is he then worth all that talent, at least 5 high prospects and crippling that team's farm system? So at the end of balancing the scales, I would go for Upton if it would cost an un-signable 2015 Elvis, even knowing that Profar is a prospect, and has not proven anything yet at major league level, and yet to even bat above .286 in the minors at any level. He does demostrate incredible intangibles, like Elvis, and should prove a great replacement. I also not see Andrus salary jumping that much in 2015, just doubling his lucrative 2014 deal would put him 5yr$70m, to go higher he will have to pull a Davy Johnson, and outstanding defensive second baseman who went from 5hrs in 1972 to 43 in 1973. But that is asking a lot of a shortstop that has a career 14 dingers. A batting title or two would help, but even that does not command the salaries as the long ball.
@lesJust stop. He gets on base at a 35% clip at 22. He hit 37 dingers in 120 games at Miami. I dont doubt for a moment that he could clear 50 HRs here and for that matter I think he could clear 60 as well. Look It wouldnt shock me if he passes Bonds. If there is one guy who can do it, it is Giancarlo Stanton, why because he is showing so much power at such a young age. Now dont go and twist what I said and say "juricksoon says that Stanton will pass Bonds" because I haven't said that and I don't think he is anywhere near that class yet, but I think he has a chance to surpass that class and stand on his own as the best power hitter in baseball history and that why he has so much value. No one has said he is the next Ruth or Aaron, but I will go on record saying that I think he can be better than them.
Trade for Stanton and sign Lohse. WS champs!!
If you look at the header of this thread it kinda looks like trade Profar and Upton for Stanton. Sounds good to me. Trade Olt and whatever else to get Upton then on trade Upton and Profar for Stanton. Would the Marlins do it? I think they want a young superstar in the making with lots of years of control but also someone young whom is relatively well known to put bums on seats which Upton would do.
@JasonMiami wouldn't do it, mostly because of their reluctance to take on salary.
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