What is your opinion of the A.J. Pierzynski signing?
MJH on accountability
What if the Rangers called the Cardinals and said they would give them Andrus for Taveras. Would they hang up or would they consider it? I know it would be risky as Taveras has not proven himself at the major league level, but from everything I hear he's one of the best all around hitters in the minors. How much would it take to get Taveras and Allen Craig? Andrus, Olt, and 2 or 3 other top prospects. I would love to see the Rangers move forward with Taveras, Craig and Profar for the future. Espeically when you pair them with Beltre, Kinsler, Pierzynski and Martin/Gentry for the short term.
As much as I wanted David Price when the off-season began I feel that moving Andrus for more bats might be the way to go. What do you think?
Pet peeve. Headlines such as this one: Andrus to St. Louis? This headline implies some actual basis for a rumor or story on the subject. Not just some posters wild arse idea he just pulled out of his butt. Please cease and desist such crap posts!
Ridiculous... To make it worse, you post as "crazy thought." Just... Go away.
Posted this months ago and was immediately shut down. Taveras is arguably the best slugging hitter in the minors. He's the 1B to Profar's 1A. Doubt there's any way we can pry him away. But if we could, I would definitely include Elvis.
Why would St Louis trade for Andrus when they have a healing Rafael Furcal, the equal of Andrus, and Pete Kozma , who after Furcal went down only hit .333, with an obp of .383?
ps, also kinda agree with Darth, except for the "?". Did give an appearance something had broken that no one knew about the way you had worded your forum topic, even if this is what the forum is all about.
Trading to be trading is bad business. Sometimes I think half the people posting here do not understand that 'trades' need to move both teams forward and when it maintains the status quo or is one sided its not a trade you are going to see made that often.
And this trade certainly meets the requirements of being a knuckle head, lame brain trade scenario.
In a Rangers forum, familiarity with Taveras is sketchy. To simply put it in terms of players we are familiar with, would you trade Andrus for Olt?
While we gush over Profar and see Olt as a bit 2nd-tier, Olt may be a better prospect than Taveras. In the same league same season in 2012, Olt had a better OPS and he plays a premium position (Taveras is a generic OFer). Both are in the 11-20 range as MLB-ranked prospects.
I think this is one of those "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" ideas. Downgrade your own player in the analysis, and overrate the other team's player. I wouldn't trade Andrus for Olt, so I wouldn't trade him for Taveras either.
Oh, and needless to say, I think the idea that in order to get Taveras, the Rangers might unsuccessfully start their offers with "Andrus, Olt, and 2 or 3 other top prospects" to be wildly absurd in the way it undervalues the Rangers assets.
Darth / les: Apologize for the post headline. I can see how that would be annoying. As far as it being a "crap" post..... ok.
les: I don't view Furcal and Andrus being equal. I view Andrus as an upgrade. Especially with Furcal coming off of rehab at a much older age, so there is a question mark there. As far as Kozma goes, I think the Card's front office is more shocked than anyone at that production. It was 26 games and he played better than he ever has. As a former first round draft pick most thought he was a bust: 6 seasons in the minors hitting .236 with an OBP of .308. The 16 games he had in the majors in 2011 he hit .176 with an OBP of .333. I know plenty of Cardinal's fans who are thankful that he gave them that run...but they are not expecting it again.
I mention St. Louis only because as we headed into this offseason they were thought of as one of the few trade fits for a shortstop (even Hindman mentioned them in one of his October articles on this site). I would love for Texas to talk to them about one of their many pitchers that are projected as rotation anchors. I just don't think that's gonna happen.
As far as the name "crazythought"....I don't think Taveras is going to happen either. But not because of Texas -- because I don't think SL is going to let Taveras go. With Profar ready to take over short (although I'm sure he will not be as good as Andrus this year), I have no reservations about making this trade. Here's Taveras' batting line at AA this year .321 / .380 / .572. Same league as Profar and Olt and better than both (half of Olt's strikeouts with the same power and better average). He would be our number 2 prospect if he was in the Texas system only because of Profar's premium defense at a premium position (plus Taveras' defense does need some more work). I, like most of us, just don't want to see Andrus walk off into the sunset in two years with nothing to show for it.... unless they win a series or two. Then I don't mind as much.
You never know, though. St. Louis may feel they do want to upgrade at SS.
David - the other pieces were thrown in if Texas asked for something else besides Taveras. I put in Craig. Looking at it now it does seem like a lot of pieces for Taveras and Craig (and would be way to much for just Taveras - you are right). But St. Louis has a great system as well. I don't think this trade would benefit just one team.
I respect you for having a sensible thought process and arguing your point, even to a fault (BA or triple slash lines are not solid basis for proving your point). Most people with trade proposals throw them up here and do not go in to why they honestly believe it is best for both teams.
At least you tried. I respect that. But trading Andrus for anything less than ML ready and proven star caliber talent is just bad business through and through. An Olt and maybe Grimm for Taveras would be closer to value IMO, but no way St. Louis lets him go without getting significant pieces in return, and frankly, Andrus is not the guy they really need.
You guys obviously do not know much about Taveras, nor have followed him at all. He will easily be in the top 5 when Baseball America comes out with their top 100 list and is nearly 4 years younger than Olt. He's a generational talent like Profar and is being touted as the reincarnation of Manny Ramirez. Please don't ever say Olt is better than him. He's not. I would trade Elvis straight up for him in a heart beat....and no, that's not enough. And please don't bring up the aging Furcal and Kozma isn't the real deal anyways. Elvis is a top 3 SS. But the Cardinals would never do this trade unless you blew them out of the water... Their farm is so good, they would never have to trade a Taveras for an Elvis. They have the depth, like the Rangers with Profar, to hold onto their premier prospects and still get the guy they want. This isn't a bad trade thought and the pieces do fit, unfortunately it just can't happen from a GM perspective.
Crazy, in your gushing over Taveras, you're dismissive of Olt. But it was OLT who was a slightly better hitter in 2012, and if you don't notice, you either have an agenda or you're just not trying.
Olt (not Taveras) had a HIGHER (1) OBP (2) Slug pct (3) OPS(4) 5 more HR (28, 23) in about 25% fewer ABs (5) It was Olt, not Taveras, who got called up and some exposure to the ML level of play.
Yes Taveras had a higher BA, but almost everyone these days uses OPS rather than BA to evaluate who's a better hitter. And Olt plays a premium position (and is a plus fielder by all accounts.) Taveras may turn out to be a fine hitter, but Olt is on the same tier as a prospect.
David,I love how in your fascination with Olt you failed to point out the real numbers....since they're extremely close.Tavares v. OltBA: .321 v. .288OBP: .380 v. .398SLG: .572 v. .579OPS: .953 v. .977SO: 56 v. 101BB: 42 v. 61Attempts: 477 v. 354
Age: 20 v. 23 (3 years and 10 months younger than Olt to be exact)
You can play the whole Olt is better than Taveras all you want, but any sane baseball person and every baseball scout out there will tell you you're wrong. Age does mean something. When a player is putting up nearly the exact same numbers with a 30 point higher average, AND he's 4 years younger and hasn't fully developed his body yet, he's a better prospect. This is just the typical Ranger fan overvaluing their own prospects since "familiarity is sketchy with Taveras". I hate to be rude, but you brought it out of me with that nonsensical argument.
St. Louis is one of the few teams who I'd consider offering Profar in a prospect-centered trade.
What's most important about their farm is that they have a lot of major-league ready or nearly ready power, and left-handed at that in Tavares and Matt Adams, along with a potential future ace to #1 in Shelby Miller. And we already know what a pain Allen Craig can be, though his defense is truly dreadful, at least anywhere but 1B.
Major-league power is something we're now lacking somewhat, hence why I'd consider the possibilities with the Cardinals.
P1, sorry but I'm not buying. Taveras may turn out to be the better player, but you are overselling him while underselling Olt as well. I get how the age thing makes him more exciting because it implies that there may be more upside - but, it guarantees nothing.
You have never seen Taveras play and neither have I, beyond online videos of a cherry-picked at-bat here and there; our exposure to Olt is almost as limited. So asserting what "any sane baseball scout" would say is an over-the-top statement since there's no first-hand knowledge on which to base such an assertion. I know he's well regarded, but there are also reports by those who do have first-hand knowledge that he swings at everything. often can hit it (like Vlad did), he has a loopy swing that may cause big problems facing better pitchers, he looks good by the numbers, and he played 2012 in an advantageous power park (+20%) for a LH hitter, coinciding with a big power jump. Lots to like, but questions galore.
The prospect rankings by those who see a lot of the players and sift through the scouting reports do have Taveras as a very good prospect (between 11 and 20 mid-season 2012), but that's not a ranking as if he's going to reinvent baseball, and Olt is ranked essentially the same (which one is ranked higher varies, depending on who's doing the ranking). In performance, Taveras did NOT eclipse Olt in 2012 by any means, so it's not unlikely they'll still be closely rated for 2013. The age thing doesn't change that, because when prospects are "ranked" by BA, MLB, and the like, age and being younger is already factored into their ranking.
Will Taveras advance to a top 5 prospect for 2013? I have serious doubts, but we'll see when we get there. I suspect that "MVP Texas League" will turn some heads, but if Olt had stayed there all season rather than getting promoted out of the league and missing the last 20-25%, by extrapolating he'd have amassed around 38 HRs with an OPS almost 1.000 while playing superior defense at 3B and then who knows.
I would try to get some combination of Craig/Lynn/Rosenthal/Adams plus Mitchell Boggs for Andrus+ because I'm assuming Miller and Taveras are off the table.
Did not mean for this to turn into Mike Olt vs. Oscar Taveras.
David - I see your point. But the same scouts who said Taveras swings at everything have also said he has shown the ability to adjust when his approach is not working. These are also the same scouts who have major questions about Mike Olt: The hole in his swing, his strikeout percentage, whether he can keep his walk percentage high in the majors, and the fact that he does not just feast on fastballs like other power hitters. Can he sustain his power outside of the homer-friendly Texas League.
There are questions for all of them, that is why I said in the opening post that I know it is risky. I would be more comfortable if the trade was expanded for some ML proven talent, like Craig (offensive talent anyways). That is where Olt came in from my side. To expand the trade. I like Olt and would love to keep him, but I think Texas might be ready to trade him now if it meant not moving him off of a premium position and risking him getting exposed by Major League pitching.
That being said, I don't think it is a bad idea to look at other prospects, or Major League players in a deal for Andrus + prospects. St. Louis has a lot of talent. Does not have to be Taveras.
Crazy, Andrus is the real trade chip the Rangers should utilize to first get Stanton or Upton, in that order, then if unsuccessful, consider Oscar Taveras. No Minor Leaguer is a sure fire, including Olt or Profar, until they demonstrate it at MLB level. Both, however have had their cups of coffee. Oscar is still to neophilic to know one way or the other. Recall another Taveras, which the Rangers even signed to a AAA contract in 2010, Willy. He also was a major success ar AA, Round Rock for the Astros, and hit .335. He then went on to bat .320 for the Astros in 2005. And where is he now, three days ago signed a minor league deal with K.C.. So, especially as an outfielder, it is always a risk, where an all-star level defensive 2b/ss can always contribute in the field. Oscar may be the next Harper/Trout, but he could just as easy be the next Willy. only playing in the BIG SHOW determines, and Stanton or Upton are already a proven real deal.
Crazy, I'm not trying to say Taveras is a dog or a kid without a very promising upside. But in the rush to praise him, I think two things are getting ignored (in a "grass is always greener somewhere else" manner) and that's why I've spoken up as I did:(1) Taveras isn't a sure thing at all. I didn't point out his flaws to say they were impossible, but rather to show that they are big enough and numerous enough to matter. While we can guess he might get past them, some of them could really derail him. (2) For all his promise, the VERY SAME SCOUTS who think Taveras has a good chance to figure it out, are the ones who rank Olt and Taveras at essentially the same general level. Some rank Olt as the better prospect, some say Taveras, but both are right in the very same range as each other. If you buy into what they think about Taveras and his ability to overcome his flaws, you have to buy into the way they like Olt and think he's just as promising.
If you want to move Olt because he's blocked, there are plenty of options without downplaying his quality.
You could look to trade him for an equivalent prospect at a position more of need, like OF (such as Taveras) or a similar quality 1B prospect (there's only one top-100 IB prospect) or maybe a pitching prospect.
Or perhaps you swap him for a proven MLer at one of those positions - - Myers (ranked in the top 4 prospects in Texas League beside Profar, Taveras, and Olt) landed James Shields for KC, and Olt reportedly was the Mets' ask for the reigning Cy Young winner. Those pitchers were both high quality with essentially 2-3 year windows.
Crazy, the only point that can be made for Andrus over Furcal is youth. Furcal is just as good on defense, has shown a degree of power, even amassing 15 hrs in as season, twice. Elvis has not even reached that number in 2284 at bats. Furcal will be ready to go in 2013, and thus St. Louis simply does not need Elvis, even if as I see it, he still has upside, especially at the plate, and seems to be getting larger every year. There is not even an over-whelming savings in the differences of Furcal's and Elvis' 2013 salaries to the Cardinals, so there are many more viable trade options for the Rangers then St. Louis.
I think the Cardinals would be a little too smart to swing this trade, even though I'd do it in a heartbeat. Another thing to consider is that -- if the trade actually materialized -- St. Louis would be one of the small handful of teams who could Elvis Andrus in a longterm extension. So that might make them a little more willing.
I can completely picture Elvis in a Cardinals uniform, and that city would embrace him immediately.
I do think the idea is farfetched, but given the price of prospects in the Shields/Dickey trades so far in the offseason, nothing will really surprise me.
What don't need is to send any package of young players for another young player. We need pitching, pitching, pitching. We already had prolific hitting teams these last three years but came up short on pitching. Home runs win games but pitching wins championships :)
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