What is your opinion of the A.J. Pierzynski signing?
MJH on accountability
Jon Daniels doesn't need a bidding frenzy. He needs a MOTOB or a TORP. In this specific case, it's not about getting the biggest haul for Elvis Andrus; it's about satisfying the specific needs of the team.
And no, I'm not going to take your bet. Small samples prove nothing, and thus, if Elvis Andrus is or isn't traded, it won't change the principal I'm trying to get across to you. You are stubborn about this topic. I see things differently. We'll leave it at that.
I understand your assertion and have understood it quite well all along ...except, I think your "principle" in principly hogwash. So yes, we disagree and will continue to do so.
The "proof" of your point of view rests in your assumption (and nothing else) that Andrus is on the trade block. But all the evidence says no - and in fact, says the opposite. So you may think that "because eric says so" in the face of what we have is compelling information that should persuade all but the stubborn, but nah not really. And your refusal to put your money where your mouth is, so to speak, on whether Andrus gets traded, tells us all we need to know on how much you yourself trust your own blather.
Nothing has changed. The Rangers need a TORP, a top middle bat, and catching. All of these are rare commodities today. The best trade piece is Elvis, the best TORPs are in Tampa Bay, and excluding Josh, the best batter in the rumor mill is Justin Upton. The Rangers need these pieces more than they need Elvis so let the Rangers make their best deal.
@eric: if Young hit in 2012 like he did in 2011, he would be fine in the 2 spot. Ian didn't do that well leading off this year; Elvis would have been a better leadoff hitter. Of course, this is all hindsight, so it doesn't matter.
I'd like to think that's what T.R. meant, but I'm reaching.
Primi "The Rangers need these pieces more than they need Elvis"
The Rangers by all accounts don't share your evaluation. From what they are saying, they either don't value those pieces over having Andrus in a Rangers uni, or feel like they have better avenues to roster-building than those that have them trading Andrus this off-season. We'll see what happens.
@David: remember that adage about closed doors in baseball? It's more than just the players' clubhouse. Tons of things go on that the public never hears about.
I strongly suspect the Rangers have discussed Elvis's value, and what they could get for him in trade, more than any of us. I would not be surprised if more than half the teams in the league have checked in with the Rangers to see if Elvis is available (and possibly other players; this is routine, after all) and that they have probably gotten a dozen trade proposals since the World Series, most of which were likely dismissed politely per the social contract.
If rumor has it a player is on the trading block, I imagine that means the team has thought long and hard about him and is, compared to the rest of their team, reasonably serious about trading him. Remember what ramifications can domino from letting such word leak out; it could foster resentment in the clubhouse, damage chemistry (whatever that is), and cause dissension. (Yes, those are all pretty much the same thing. I'm doing it for emphasis.) Once you let that word out, you can't take it back.
If Elvis were "on the trading block", that would mean the Rangers are seriously entertaining offers for him. The fact that they have said he isn't probably loosely translates to "we have no plans right now" but of course leaves the possibility.
I don't want Elvis to be traded either, but I won't be shocked if he is.
I've always liked Shields. I like the idea of getting David Ross, C & a Soto redo.CarGo may be the/a sleeping available OF bat. Rockies can be persuaded, surely.
The Rockies need pitching help, HubZ and unfortunately that isn't a position we're deep in right now. I'm sure they're happy with Tulo manning SS (not that you're advocating moving Elvis for him).
Concerning CarGo, didn't the home/away analysis that RFan did a couple of months ago show Cargo is marginal at best away from Coors Field? Is the improvement over Murphy going to be worth the cost in prospects and increase in payroll (meaning less money to address catcher/BP holes)?
If I'm JD I'm shopping Elvis & Cruz for help at catcher and starting pitching, looking at the rule 5 for a 6th inning guy, and talking to McCarthy/Haren/mystery Feldman to fill out the rotation.
My "proof" resides in the sturdy hands of logic and reason. It's funny to me that I said my piece and had no plans on commenting further on the issue, trying to move forward amicably by merely chalking this up to a difference of opinion, and you successfully baited me with a garbage post consisting of such vitriol. Congratulations.
I'm loving how serious you are about this, using words like proof and evidence to prolong this whole me vs. you bullshit. My evidence is predicated by the pattern of business the neo-Rangers have operated with, which I've already referenced for you. And there you are, living in a bubble with all the air vacuumed out, pretending like every word the media translates to the public is all of a sudden gospel.
I'm sorry, I may have agreed with you when I was 13, but it's been awhile since I believed everything I've heard.
But yeah, if it would satisfy you and your ego, let's go through with this stupid ass bet of yours. When Elvis Andrus is traded, your clock begins. If for some reason he isn't traded and your -- along with many other posters -- assertion is correct, then I will not post starting on Opening Day 2013.
David, it seems like a lot of the debate you and Eric are having is mostly semantics. No the Rangers are not actively shopping Elvis nor do they likely even have him on the trading block. The various beat writers that have reported this have been correct in doing so. However, to Eric's point, just because he is not on the trading block does not mean JD hangs up whenever anyone mentions his name. It'd be stupid for any GM to do that for any player. I guarantee you the Angels at least listen even on someone like Trout (though the package would have to be astronomical to get them to keep listening for long).
Personally, I think Andrus gets traded before the start of the regular season as the Rangers have too many needs and there are too few Free Agent options to fill them plus his value is only going to increase as the offseason wears on and more and more options disappear (Stephen Drew is really the only FA shortstop who has a chance to be above replacement level on a full time basis). That said, if he's not traded I don't see a scenario where it happens in the middle of the season as, if he's on the roster, he's simply going to be too involved and crucial to what the Rangers are doing to trade him after the regular season begins. If the Rangers are going to roll with Andrus and Profar on the MLB roster with both getting consistent playing time it is going to necessitate enough other changes (such as Kinsler moving to 1B or the OF) that adjusting the lineup back to the way it was midseason would be too risky. If he's going to be traded it'll either be before the season or after the season (at which point his value would be greatly decreased).
David... What Eric said is that the team will discuss trading Andrus. Not that they will definitely trade him. Big difference. Why try to be a tough guy and "bet" on it? If Andrus doesn't get traded, that doesn't prove either of you were right or wrong. Until the team explicitly says they are/aren't considering trading Elvis (or he actually gets traded), this is a pointless debate.
However I tend to agree that this FO operates mostly in secret, and other GMs aren't constantly disclosing private conversations with other teams to the press either. JD has said basically every time he's been asked by the media that the club will explore any and all possibilities to improve the team and that simply "hanging up" when a certain player is mentioned would be unwise.
Jondar, if Andrus is being made available, he'll get traded. Eric's assertion is that despite all the reports to the contrary, he is indeed being made available (and therefore is destined to be elsewhere on opening day) . I don't buy it.
And yep eric, I'll take that bet. One month away from posting here for the loser, as follows:.
"[If] Elvis Andrus is traded this offseason, [David's time out] begins [at that point].["If he isn't traded, then [Eric] agrees to stop posting here starting on Opening Day 2013."
"if Andrus is being made available, he'll get traded"
That's kind of a leap IMO. It's entirely possible no team will give the Rangers what they want for Elvis, even if his value is currently at its highest. Why do you think teams quietly put players on waivers every August? Saying Andrus is available (well, they won't actually say it publicly) is not the same as saying "we'll take whatever we can get for him right now." Look at Upton, who couldn't possibly be more "made available," and yet there's a strong possibility he stays in AZ. It takes two to trade.
Bottom line, the Rangers aren't in the business of closing doors before they open and they don't tip their hand to the media, as well they shouldn't. You just can't say if Elvis isn't traded then that means they never even explored it.
As for the OP... this is from Jayson Stark today:
Teams that have touched base with the Rays say they continue to listen to all sorts of trade scenarios that could involve James Shields, Jeremy Hellickson or even David Price. But the odds of Shields or Price actually going anywhere might be almost as long as the odds of the Rays signing Zack Greinke.
"Oh, they're open to it," said an official of one team that checked in with the Rays. "They're open to being overwhelmed."
The asking price for Shields, other teams say, starts in the neighborhood of the five-player package the Rays got from the Cubs for Matt Garza, and goes north from there. And to pry the Cy Young Award winner away, it might take double that. So Hellickson remains a much more likely candidate to call a moving van. And even that's no lock.
For those wondering, the Garza trade brought the Rays Fuld, Archer, Guyer, Hak-Ju Lee, and Chirinos.
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