Worst thread ever. I hate you Face.

I guess I would be okay with him staying in Texas if he were to have a reduced role. Hopefully playing mostly against lefties. Interestingly though, even though his BA against lefties this year was 80 points higher than against righties, his rate of doubles was almost the same against both, and he had 7 HRs against righties and only 1 against LHP. Also, his rate of GDPs was higher against lefties. Approximately 1/4 of his at-bats were against LHP. Hmm, maybe the platoon split isn't quite as ideal as you'd like...

Also interestingly, 7 of his 8 HRs were away. As in, in parks not as hitter-friendly as RBiA. Interesting numbers, indeed.

TXball and BZ. Great posts, a lot of educated opinion in there.

Eric,
I really don't see the point in trading Young for a guy on the verge of making the 40 man roster, the Rangers would be better off keeping him for his clubhouse presence, and hope he performs a little better this year and I think he will in a reduced role. He would have value as a backup utility infielder, because he can play 4 positions, the Rangers wouldn't be able to get any decent value for him that he doesn't provide. His trade value is lower than it has ever been. He could be good for a kid like Profar as well, because he has made an impact on Andrus's career. What the Rangers decide to with Profar to start out this season will also help determine Young's role this season, because if Profar is up playing 2nd base that means Kinsler is in the outfield or if he is playing shortstop that means Andrus is gone in a trade and either one of those scenarios means a crowded outfield with Gentry, Kinsler/Upton, Martin, Murphy, and Cruz. If Profar starts the season out in the Big Leagues that means Young's role is reduced, but this off-season has a lot to do with those decisions.

i ran into michael young yesterday at the angelika theater. no crowd or posse around him or anything -made me wonder if no one recognized him lol

How should Young be used next year is the probable question. I doubt we can trade him. I doubt Wash will basically superglue his, most likely useless, backside to the pine.

He shouldn't have any glove made available to him other then 1b. And advantage you might get from his bat over a UIF is likely lost by his lead feet and iron glove. I'd also prefer Young to not get reps at 3b, to me a slick fielding UIF or a specialist platoon hitter likely provides more utility to those ABs that Beltre doesn't take there then Young. I do think that Young is probably also a worse option at 1b or DH then the other RH bats we could probably use in a similar setting, but since we have Captain Leadership and his 16 million friends on the roster we have to use him somehow. So I'd hope that the option is basically around 200 AB, which is the RH side of a platoon level AB, for Young at 1b and DH. That, to me, would be the optimal way to minimize his damage. Note this isn't maximizing our offensive potential, those 200 AB against LHP could be better used by other players with platoon splits.

Yes, I do think that Michael Young has basically ceased to be a useful MLB level player. He was a one tool player, who's tool was bat speed and it seems like his bat has slowed significantly.

I think Young could suffice as a 3rd-string 2B, SS, and 3B (behind Ian and Profar, Elvis and Profar, and Beltre and Olt). At 1B I'd imagine he's 3rd or 4th string, depending on who else is on the team next year (1B seems much more up in the air than the other 3). That's not a bad use of him, I don't think; nobody else has experience at all 4 positions. Yeah, I know, some of us would rather see Ian at 3B than Young. I think I would. But that's probably not going to happen. The point is, if we're going to have Young on the team next year, we have to use him appropriately, and that to me seems like mostly spelling the other IF guys now and then. In such a capacity, it's possible he could be help to the team instead of a detriment.

But I'm not holding my breath for that, and I know you guys aren't, either.

One of the things that I find intresting is people have only vaguely pointed out the comparison of what happened with Young this year and what happened to Derek Jeter a couple of years ago. Michael young is the Rangers version of Derek Jeter and jimmy rollins and had a fantastic season in 2011. Last year was out right awful, but I think the Rangers owe it to the man to "figure" it out. He's beenm one of the more consitent players in baseball for the last 10 years and should rebound. Am I blindly following a fools gold chance that Young will be good next year? Nah. But there were alot of reasons why the team failed in the end...young was just one of many reasons the team choked....in any event, heres to a rebound in 2012 and hopefully a three year contract at 21 million, and 3,000 hits in a Rangers uniform.

My's splits in Sept/Oct were more indicative of his career 313/360/478...me sees a rebound next year.

I'd bet against the Sept/Oct split saying good things about Young going forward. Young's offensive revival was basically BABIP and HR/FB driven. His K% went up while his BB% went down. Basically Young is hitting more ground balls right now. Maybe he will get back around to being what he was, but i'd bet against it being in the same way that he was successful in Sept/Oct. He won't sport a 15% HR/FB ratio over a season, consdering he's only been near there for a year twice.

I'd really be interested to hear a legit scouts opinion of Young from last year I'd not be surprised to see something like severely diminished bat speed. Inability to trigger to right field like in years past.

I hope you are right Tim, I would love to see that.

Thank God Tim is not the GM. Rebound or no rebound, if you think Young is getting a 3-year extension at age 37 then you probably still believe in Santa Claus. The Rangers don't owe Young another full season (or more) of 650 PA just because he was the best player on bad Ranger rosters for many years. All they owe him is professionalism, and if you think cutting or trading an overpaid, underperforming player is unprofessional, then you just might not have good business sense.

And for the record, Jeter in 2010 and Rollins in 2012 were not nearly as awful as Young in 2012. Young was significantly worse in OBP and OPS and posted an OPS+ of 78 which is laughable. Nevermind the fact that both those guys at least have some value in the field whereas Young has none.

So I awake from my sports coma for CBB and we're still talking about this crap? Can we please talk about Profar, or Yu, or Beltre, or trading Andrus for all the mineral rights in the world? OR ANYTHING ELSE BUT THIS SHIT?

@dub

Talk to the OP who decided to whine with no quantifiable data to back up his whining at all besides "leadership".

@ Romeo

It's not whining, just being a true fan, and I have had plenty of quantifiable statistics to back up my position, you guys can hate on one of the best Rangers of all-time if you want, that is your decision. I can keep proving you guys wrong if you want, you said I couldn't quantify leadership and I shut Eric up about that even, I never said he had a good 2012, I agree with you all on that, but people trying to say he was not that good in the past is straight nonsense and dissing on one of the best Rangers of all time after one bad year does not portray a good image of the fan base at all.

Obviously you just don't get it. None of us hate MY. We hate was his bat does to this lineup, but I would feel comfortable speaking for anyone in here in saying we love what MY has meant to this team during his career and while this team was in the dumps and he was a line bright spot. But every player's time comes, and we all must accept that. Calling out his bat and glove as a detriment to this team does not make us not "true fans" just because we choose not to blindly give him a pass because of what he used to mean to this team. It means we see something for what it is and recognize that for this team to improve MY can no longer be in the lineup every day.

And no you have not proven anybody wrong even one time in here, and no you really haven't used good quantifiable stats to make your point. "But he's my team" is not a quantifiable number.

I used quotes from the Rangers clubhouse Romeo, I would say that is enough to say he is a leader, and you simply do not get it Romeo, my opening post was not about giving him a free pass it was about giving him respect, and calling him Face and saying he was never a leader and trying to devalue his 2011 season and his career from the likes of Eric and others you will see, and you are putting statements into quotes that I never even said, and when did I say he deserves a free pass? Go read my opening post and you will see I was not whining, and was not calling anyone out, I was attacked after that. And for quantifiable stats, I used batting average and RBIs. Those are two irrelevant stats right? Oh wait you hit the ball and the other team doesn't catch it, that raises your batting average, and when you drive in a run that is an RBI, those are both irrelevant stats though, RBI is a stat based on opportunity, REALLY? Of course it is, but you have to capitalize on those opportunities and Michael Young did that in 2011. What was a big problem that held the Rangers out of the playoffs over the past month of the season? Situational hitting! An RBI here and there does not seem so irrelevant know does it? So actually I have proved people wrong about Michael Young's leadership and RBIs being irrelevant.

None of you hate Michael Young? TXball and BZ said they did so that's the third time I have proved someone wrong Romeo, maybe you should read the whole thread before you start commenting.

You haven't proven anyone wrong. All that's been proven is that Michael Young's blindly loyal following is just as delusional as it's always been.

Young is a Rangers Hall of Famer. I would hope no one here would dispute that. Young is no where closer to being a MLB hall of famer, I would hope that no one here would dispute that.

Appreciating Young for what he has done in the past and being scared of Young being on the team going forward for what we think he might do in the future is two very different things. I'm at the point that I want Young gone because I don't trust the manager to sufficiently limit his ABs to help him limit the damage he can do to the offense. I'm not convinced that giving 200 of Young's ABs against LHP last year to Brandon Snyder, who I will freely admit is pretty bad, wouldn't have put us in the playoffs as a division winner.

I think he is here next year. I dread that because I think our offense takes a pretty big hit with the loss of either, or possibly both, Napoli and Hamilton.

Average is a pretty poor stat to rate someone by. Rbi's are a little better, but OBP and ops are better. Someone who builds their entire argument on average abd rbis doesnt have a clue. Also, nobody said MY wasn't a leader. Just that its not enough to justify keeping his awful production in the lineup.

RBI is equally as bad as BA, which is why the triple crown doesn't mean anything to me. If I don't agree with 2/3 of the equation, then why should the feat have any meaning attached to it?

But it's the same phenomena that keeps Michael Young as a valuable commodity in some circles. The same people who think Miguel Cabrera should be the MVP are the ones who think Michael Young is still good. Because they measure intangibles, things we can't quantify using data. Myself, personally, have no use for things we can't measure.

I got into a colored argument with a Jays fan about this today. He was spouting off, "his leadership cant be replaced", "he has done so much for the rangers organization", and "he won a gold glove, he is good defensively." I then told him about advanced statistics such as wRC+, OPS, and WAR. He then tells me that those stats are useless. Many people just hear the comments Mitch Williams or John Kruk say while creaming their pants over the thought of face playing SS. I used to be the biggest MY apologist and fan, but this site has turned me totally against him. He was a cancer to the rangers line up this year. His awful play and bitching (which some people think is #leadership) is downright embarrasing. I wish people would come out of the past, and the stone age of stats, and realize how bad he was this past year, and how he deserves a part time role (if that) next year.

P.S. Since my friend is such a big Jays fan and loves MY, you think he would mind trading bautista and reyes for him? :D

Eric

I can at least respect your argument, I agree that WAR and UZR and most saber metrics are great stats, but to disregard RBIs and Batting average altogether is where you lose me. Michael Young has had a great career leading up to 2012 and I highly doubt he is dead in the water, I'm trying to get a degree though, so if you want to hate him go for it, I don't have time to argue all the time. I have said all I really want to say about this subject and vented about one of two things I don't like about BBTiA. The other is the bashing of Ron Washington, but I agree with most of the points brought up when talking about bashing Wash, I am just a die hard fan of the Rangers who will cheer for whoever the organization thinks is the best player/coaching staff out there, and never talk bad about any Rangers player, except Richard Hidalgo, thank God we have came along way since we counted on players like him to do anything.

I'm not disregarding avg and rbi's entirely. I'm just saying they are pretty low on the totem pole compared to the better stats we have at our disposal. I'll give you a very simplified example based on two stats alone. Batting average and on base percentage.

Player A
BA: .277
OBP: .312

Player B
BA: .227
OBP: .343

Which player do you take? The answer should be obvious. It's player B. why? Because getting on base is the name of the game. You have to have base runners to score runs. It doesn't matter how you get those base runners whether it be a single or a walk. Especially for a batter who is primarily a singles hitter in his own right, what is the difference in how you get on base? Therefore I'll take player B all day long. This is a very simple example of how batting average is a pretty poor stat to pin your arguments to.

Also if you haven't figured it out player A was MY and player B was Napoli. I'll take Napoli all day long.