What is your opinion of the A.J. Pierzynski signing?
MJH on accountability
I hate the argument of Young can still get it done against LHP. Young was less pathetic against LHP last year. You know who on the Rangers team hit better. Gentry was 60 points of OPS better. You know who else was better. Brandon freaking Snyder, over 900 ops against LHP. Every AB given to Young at this point is an at bat that could be better used by another player. Now we are going to see 400+ AB of Young next year, I'd be willing to bet on it right now, and that will hurt our team.
Wow, there is some serious passion going on today. Makes for interesting reading during a slow stretch in the off season. Dare I venture an opinion?There are some things the majority all seem to agree on:- Michael Young was badly mismanaged by Wash last year- MY's performance from May thru August was one of the worst stretches of performance by a full timer in recent history- Young has been a long time Ranger favorite, the face of the franchise for many years, and a gamer who worked hard to usually play at a level well above his natural ability- His role with the Rangers and playing time in 2013, has to change dramatically, if he even stays with the Rangers
In the meantime, maybe we can lighten up on the guy a bit. The real problem is that Wash refused to sit MY down while in a horrible slump. For Young's part, he worked hard to try and figure it out. I don't think we can blame an athlete for not sitting himself down. Doubt there are many who have done that since Lou Gehrig. It is a disgrace that Wash did not bench him for stretches of 3-4 games to let him try and work thru it in the cage. If by late July he was still slumping, then he should have been moved to a role position, platoon vs lefties at 1B, IF sub to give Kinsler and Beltre the occasional rest they so badly needed. Really do not see how it is fair to rail on Young when it is obvious that Wash was the culprit here.
Lets face it, next year, not likely Young is going anywhere. Hard to see the Rangers eating $12-13M to ship him else where and his value is not high enough for another team to pay more. The FO has got to make sure his role is well defined and that Wash has limits on how to use him. We will lose Hamilton, the Rangers have got to make up that offense at 1B, DH, Catcher and in replacement AB's in the OF. Therefore Young will come to spring training without a starting job. Does not mean he cannot contribute if used correctly. And if someone gets hurt, he can help, especially against lefties.
yes, Young needs to accept this. And you can bet he will work his ass off this winter to try and rebound. Think of another player, very similar to Young who was trashed badly a couple of years ago. Derek Jeter. Did any of you think he could turn around the way he did this year? Give MY a chance, but cut Wash no slack
Wow, nice OP to get the haters and stat heads out in full force, lol. When I first started reading I thought, oh brother, he's going to try to justify MYs everyday presence in the in lineup, etc., but he nailed it perfectly. This dude may go down as THE greatest/most popular Rangers players of all time and you REALLY have to question the more vehement MY haters' fanhood, regardless of what you think of MY's current production and excessive PT.
To the very young, the newer bandwagon fans, the fantasy baseball warriors, the Sabremetric dittoheads, or just the plain ignorant: there's still hope, as well as a place at the table for you to be true fans of this franchise. Anyway MY will be gone soon enough and you can then focus your blind hatred elsewhere, like on RW. :(
Saying my post is baseless and unquantifiable is false, I have my opinion and you have yours, we agree on some things and disagree on others, but I'm not ignorant and I know baseball, and I don't have to read computer formulas off of a paper to know if someone is good or not.
It is unquantifiable. You are saying that Michael Young is valuable because youi think he is a leader, and that people look up to him. You can't prove or unprove that. You say that it was his LEADERSHIP that got us to 2 world series (not him playing like crap in the playoffs and most other Rangers playing well). You can't prove that. And if his leadership is so great, why didn't it prevent this year's epic collapse? And why didn't it help in the years 2002-2009?
And yes, you do need to look at numbers to know how good a player is. This is fucking baseball. I refuse to believe that you can watch all 162 games of a team and figure out how good a season someone has had IN YOU HEAD. I can believe that you try to do it, though. Everything you have posted in this thread reeks of bias and selective memory.
And Michael Young finishing 8th in the 2011 MVP voting was because of some bullshit that has been thoroughly debunked. The "experts" are just local beat writers from around the country that only care about BA, HR, and RBI.
And batting average is useless. It counts singles, doubles, triples, and home runs the same. It acts like walks and sac flies never happen. It is a bad, BAD statistic. And it doesn't matter is he played 4 positions in 2011, because he sucks on defense no matter WHERE you put him.
Anyways, I don't plan on posting anything but hateful things about Michael Young for a while. Get over it.
The beat writers that voted for him are locally from around the country? Nice.
My Starbuck-like despair of Michael Young is not born of hatred or contempt for MY as a person, but that of a Ranger fan with the hope the 2011 team could reach the playoffs in the last season of Josh, Nap, Adams, and maybe even Elvis. My despair was inflamed throughout the season as games were unnecessarily discarded with MY in the field, batting in ridiculously high batting order positions, and facing RHP visibly overmatching him. If he were the best available player for his assigned task I would have understood. But he wasn't and his PAs and pathetic fielding were among the most weighing anchors that cost the Rangers a divisional title. There were many other reasons for the Rangers' collapse: pickoffs, poor base running, poorly chosen sacrifice bunts, etc., but while these lapses were sadly more than intermittent, they were not an inescapable and constant grind of feckless at bats and tragi-comic pretensions of MY as an infielder. My observations are not clouded by fan induced obsessiveness. The non-Ranger baseball community likewise recognized the incongruity of MY new role as team albatross. Many on this board gave read these items ad nauseum, but fandom is a funny thing at times. Some fans prefer to watch and support favorite players even when the favorite becomes a team millstone. I would still pay money to see Koufax pitch to Yaz, but I want neither of them or any other below replacement level player on the Ranger roster. Here are some words about MY:
While Young is still highly regarded in some circles for his personality and leadership qualities, a team with World Series aspirations simply can’t carry him as an everyday player anymore. ZIPS projects a .315 wOBA going forward, which is a substantial improvement over what he’s given them in the first half of the year but still below replacement level for a guy who only contributes at the plate.
Young’s BABIP is low for his career average, but at .300 it’s about where his hit trajectory expects it to be. He’s hitting more ground balls, and getting a bit unlucky with his home run per fly ball rate. But across the board, he’s having just a miserable time hitting fastballs this season, where he’s historically feasted. In fact, he’s having a pretty miserable time hitting anything but the curveball and he’s only seeing the yakker about 9% of the time.http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/michael-young-and-benjamin-franklin/
That’s what it has come to for Young, a six-time All-Star as a shortstop who, seemingly overnight, finds himself being regarded as not that special, not even by the team he has served so long. His feelings are hurt; he has been, he feels, “misled and manipulated.” And perhaps he was. But he would do well to remember that it might be better to gently fade into the twilight as a beloved ex-star and elder statesman in Texas than to be revealed as a faded journeyman while making a vagabond’s tour of the league’s westernmost outposts. People remember if a $100 bill vanishes from their wallet without explanation, but 50 cents? They’ll throw that in a drawer with the other flotsam and never remember they had held it in their hands.http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=12893
And both the bad and positives:
If you’re looking for the worst player in baseball this season Francoeur and Young are the most obvious candidates and right now at least my vote would go to Frenchy. Also: Francoeur is signed for $6.75 million next year and Young is under contract for $16 million.http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/14/and-the-award-for-the-worst-player-in-baseball-goes-to/
2. There is a lot of frustrations with the performance of Michael Young but Ron Washington, when asked, says he’s ready to go down with the ship if it sinks. Are fans overreacting about his rough year?
Kevin Goldstein: Yes and no. Fans aren’t overreacting at all in terms of saying Young has been really bad this year, but I think it’s a lot easier to just say don’t play him from the stands that it is from the clubhouse. There’s a dymanic there that has to be respected, even if it means playing Young too much. They’re pretty much committed at this point, at the risk of some serious drama. I don’t think Young will get the same commitment next year.http://toddkaufmann.mlblogs.com/2012/08/18/kevin-goldstein-covers-jurickson-profar-elvis-andrus-and-more/
The image of Michael Young that you so vehemently defend is nothing more than a mirage created by sports media. Leadership is not quantifiable, especially in the game of baseball. Clutch isn't quantifiable, it's a random occurrence at the expense of opportunity. RBI's are an archaic and pointless stat. Batting average, while indicative of a clear-cut percentage of hits per AB's (mind you, many base hits aren't even hard-hit, a decent sum of hits are simply balls that found holes), leaves out how many times a player gets on base, which is the truly important percentage, as this obviously raises a team's chances of scoring runs. Therefor walks matter just as much as hits.
The fact that there was a media frenzy not just once, but twice over Young's past trade requests is just absolutely ridiculous. That is not "leadership" (a word which truly holds no merit in objective analysis). These trade requests were simply examples of Young's pious self-righteousness, at the expense of not only the FO, but also the team. So tell me how this is indicative of a leader?
I understand that Young is a human being, who when faced with being moved from position to position got angry. I get that. But where are the leadership qualities in bitching to the media? Handle it like a man and take care of your business with the FO, behind closed doors.
Young's never even passed the eye-test for me. And this goes back to his prime years as the starting SS, and before I knew anything of advanced stats. I never disliked the guy, but I just never understood the ravishing compliments over Young's defense, leadership, etc. And the fact that there ARE statistics to relay a player's performance, such as Michael Young, makes it pretty clear-cut that Young is a serviceable player, but definitely not a great player (MVP type). And the fact that his prime years are apparently long gone (his bat speed was non-evident in 2012), it's pretty apparent as to why you're so outnumbered in regards to coming to Young's defense.
You are such a little cutie. You are one of the youngest little cuties that writes on this forum in fact. Such a precious little thing you are.
Whenever I see posts from Eric I just think about how cute they are.
Well I guess everyone has to have a resident 12 year old acting really arrogantly. I guess we have to give him a pass.
This forum sucks now.
You seriously do not get the point of the original post, now you're talking about defense. I said he can play 4 positions, that is it, I never commented on his defense at all, you and Eric are just out of line with your hate really and saying RBI is an outdated stat is just plain dumb. Someone is on base and you knock them in, that counts as a run, and I think to win a baseball game, you have to score more runs than the other team.. idk though, maybe you and Eric can make a stat that measures leadership so we can officially start commenting on these things.
Leadership is an unquantifiable stat
Let's hear how a players words are irrelevant, type those statements into your calculator and tell me the WAR of them please. It's not like I had to dig to deep to find those statements, the guys in the locker room give me the reason to say he is a leader, so I would say that my argument has a solid foundation gentlemen.
Great post, that was the best post yet on this topic.
Primi: "My Starbuck-like despair of Michael Young is not born of hatred or contempt for MY as a person, but that of a Ranger fan with the hope the  team could reach the playoffs in the last season of Josh, Nap, Adams, and maybe even Elvis. My despair was inflamed throughout the season as games were unnecessarily discarded with MY in the field, batting in ridiculously high batting order positions, and facing RHP visibly overmatching him.
"If he were the best available player for his assigned task I would have understood. But he wasn't and his PAs and pathetic fielding were among the most weighing anchors that cost the Rangers a divisional title. There were many other reasons for the Rangers' collapse: pickoffs, poor base running, poorly chosen sacrifice bunts, etc., but while these lapses were sadly more than intermittent, they were not an inescapable and constant grind of feckless at bats and tragi-comic pretensions of MY as an infielder. My observations are not clouded by fan induced obsessiveness. The non-Ranger baseball community likewise recognized the incongruity of MY new role as team albatross."
As Hambone said, great post on the topic of MY. I think most here essentially share your feelings on what we saw in 2012.
The question becomes, what needs to be done about it? And my personal concern is that the demonstrated stupidity-stubbornness of Ron Washington will lead to a continuation of the same nonsense if MY is again on the roster.
If he's untradable and has to stay, his play should be tied to performance. Platoon him, let him work on his hitting, let his bat be kept fresh as possible with plenty of rest, and reward him with more games when he does well.
But from what we saw in 2012, Wash believes in entitlement not accountability. We saw MY's mediocrity enabled by a manager who gave him more PAs (651!) than almost every other Ranger, despite the terrible production. And Wash has been insistent that he will manage the same way in 2013 as he did in 2012. The prospect of seeing another season of that disgusts me. Ugh.
Threads like these remind me of this Evan Grant article.
Read that article and keep in mind that this was the offseason before we made the World Series for the first time.
Keystone, the good news on that Millwood situation is that the Rangers got rid of an at-the-end-of-the-line Kevin Millwood in spite of the fact he was overpaid.
The bad news? In the swap, they got back Chris Ray, Ben Snyder, and freed up some payroll which they invested unwisely in Rich Harden. And in getting that return, they had the benefit of shopping Millwood immediately after he finished a 4.5 WAR season, which undoubtedly created some interest in other teams and made the decision to jettison him much more palatable.
With MY coming off a MINUS 3.2 WAR season, trying to do the same with him as they did with Millwood is more likely to provide only undesirable options: eat nearly all his contract in a swap (if they can find a team to take him), waive him and choke down that contract (if they can't), or keep him and hope to use him to some sort of benefit. Unfortunately the latter puts the whole thing right back under Wash's control, the same Wash who had him - while producing the 2nd worst season in baseball in 2012 - hitting 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th at various times and catering to MY's every whim.
DeveB, the time to "move on" from the topic is when it's been taken care of by the team, and so far, nothing has happened to address the problem. If you want the Rangers to win, it's something that has to be fixed ...MY may have been a key player in the past and have earned his standing as a fan favorite over the years, but he's no longer productive and his presence in the lineup hurt the team in 2012. In fact, in 2012 he sucked in every area: his offense was weak and his defense (at multiple positions) was bad. And because he was prioritized in the lineup, his presence blocked the ability to get positive production from others.
Get real. No one is getting over it until some action to fix the problem takes place.
What about eggs?
David and Ham33, thx. Dave B.: There was a time for MY but it is gone. I find it hard to believe he is the Rangers' best option for DH. He is a terrible option for backing up the infield positions. As for leadership, even leaders must go when they can no longer perform at an above replacement level. There is Beltre and Murphy, not to mention Cruz. Part of Wash's job is to instill leadership, both through himself and encouraging others to step up. I am more worried about the pitching rotation and replacing the offense from Josh and Nap then I am about leadership. MY needs to think about his future. He either transitions gracefully into anew role in baseball or retirement, or he goes kicking and screaming, hoping something magical changes times' arrow.
Dave B, quit suckling MY's nuts and grow a pair of your own. Your "nothing can be done" approach is weak sauce. Don't tell me that Young has to be on this team next year getting over 650 PAs, batting in the heart of the lineup, and playing the field poorly over those who excel, because it's total BS to marry yourself to medicocrity.
Any real Rangers' fan wants team problems fixed, not ignored. We just had a whole season of MY suckiness, and then being treated condescendingly by Wash the Moron over the whole "Why are you prioritizing MY's role when he is stinking up the joint all season" question. With the season over, now (when something can more readily be done to change the roster and coach) is the time to scream the loudest and longest and demand action.
If you don't have the cojones to hold feet to the fire, no one cares. Hit the off button on your computer while the adults do what has to be done here.
Nice attempt to derail the thread. But something still needs to be done about MY, and about WASH if he's going to keep insisting that he did it right with how he used MY in 2012 and is going to keep doing it the same way in 2013.
Yep that was over the top ~shrug~
But MY was still an abomination in 2012, and any real Rangers fan should be insistent on the front office taking corrective measures rather than fawning over MY and trying to stifle calls for change..
Michael Young 2012
April: "Wow, he's having a rough start."May: "Damn, MY is in a slump."June: "Has Michael Young lost it?"July: "Michael Young has lost it."August: "At least Jeff Francoer has a worse WAR."September: "The Rangers suck."October: "Never mind, Michael Young is the worst after all."November: "GET RID OF HIS ASS."
For the sake of conversation, I noticed you said you think there is a gm out there that would take MY if we eat all but 4 million of his contract, I would love to hear what you think about the terms of such a deal, and what teams you are thinking would take him. I personally think we have Young on Opening Day next year, and I personally think he has a decent year in a less prominent role.
I have no idea who would take him. I'm thinking an NL team could find more utility for him because of pinch-hitting, and possibly as a 2nd baseman. Maybe teams like Colorado, Pittsburgh, the Mets, the Marlins. Again, I have no idea. But $4M really isn't that much money (less than a 1.0 WAR player), and I have a hard time believing some team wouldn't take a chance.
If you ask me, I think odds are about 70-30 in favor of him being in Texas next year. However, the interest in David Ortiz should signal that the Rangers are definitely looking to reduce his role.
If a deal did materialize, we wouldn't be getting anything significant in return. Even if we took on $12M, we'd be getting a minimal return of fringe 40-man type guys.
Worst thread ever. I hate you Face.
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