What is your opinion of the A.J. Pierzynski signing?
MJH on accountability
Michael Young had a terrible year in 2012, no one can argue this, heck I am sure he would not even argue this. I agree with the opinion of many people on this site that he should not have gotten as much playing time as he did and yes he is not as good in the field as he once was. I am Michael Young's biggest supporter, he is my favorite Ranger, and yes his skills seem to be diminishing right in front of our eyes, which is very sad to me because I remember all the clutch hits he had for this club, I remember a time when he was one of the only bright spots in the Rangers organization. Yes he is old now and maybe he does drag down the lineup, but can we please respect him for LEADING the clubhouse in two straight Wold Series runs and at least call him by his name. He is not getting traded, the Rangers could not eat enough of that contract for someone to take him so we might as well get used to seeing Young for one more year, but at the same time we must realize that this may be the swan song for one of the greatest Rangers of ALL-TIME. No one can deny these facts, unless you just started following the team recently, and if you did just think of his 2011 production and just know that was the norm for Michael Young in the 2000s. Yes he is old, yes his skill set is nowhere near where it used to be, but he is a great Ranger, who has more hits than any other Ranger EVER, and he should be respected as one.
I totally agree with you. But just watch the MY haters come forth.
You had me until I saw your username as "Hambone33".
Anyways, to address your post, no one is denying what Michael Young has done for the Rangers. We were simply fed up with the way the Michael Young situation was handled this year. In fact I think Joey himself put it best with the following paragraph:
There's a certain irony in his finger-wagging attitude towards the fans, because if you stop down and think about all of this and think about the evidence laid out here, it's not just Young playing poorly that has turned the fans against Young -- it's also Washington's radically loyal mindset. Washington thinks it's wrong for any Rangers fan to turn on Young, but Washington's usage of Young is a big part of the reason why the fans are turning on Young. After these many months of futility and mounting evidence, Washington is still utilizing Young in such a way where he's destined to fail with astounding regularity and consequently hurt the team. In that sense, Washington is a huge part of the problem. Source Article, written on August 15th.
We're not against Michael Young per say. But we are damn sick and tired of MY being forced down our throats each day. We are unhappy with the fact that he played every single day, even down the stretch (including at SS, 3B, and 2B over guys like Profar and Olt when Beltre/Elvis/Kinsler were out). If Michael Young had recognized his declining skillset, or if Ron Washington hadn't force-fed us Michael Young to the tune of 611 at-bats (tied for 19th in all MLB), and -2.4 WAR (2nd worst WAR in all MLB, behind only Francoeur), then we wouldn't be so damn sick of him.
This came out of nowhere. You are about a month late on your support post, I thought everyone was done talking about Michael Young.
Trade Young for Ryus posting fee. Send Young to Korea.
Hambone33 isn't a reference to Josh Hamilton, if that is what threw you off. Wash is overly loyal to Young, because and I don't particularly like the fact that he gets so many ab's either, but he isn't going anywhere as long as Wash is here and Wash isn't going anywhere either. These are OUR Rangers that will be on the field next year and we should support them, and yes this is late I know, but we have a whole new year with Michael Young so we really won't be done talking about Young for a whole year at the least.
Then what does "hambone" refer to? Are you a fan of the Juba dance?
My last name is Hamilton, my baseball # was 33 so that's what everyone called me. I don't dance much haha
"But he's my TEAM!"
I thought this post's title was a reference to Fight Club, and only clicked on it in hopes that Michael Young had been officially launched into the sun...
Yes he is old now and maybe he does drag down the lineup, but can we please respect him for LEADING the clubhouse in two straight Wold Series runs and at least call him by his name.
Offhand, I can name several players during the last two World Series runs that had a greater impact than Face. Cliff Lee, Colby Lewis, C.J. Wilson, Ian Kinsler, Mike Napoli, Elvis Andrus, Josh Hamilton, Adrian Beltre and Nelson Cruz.
Being perceived by the fan base as the "clubhouse leader" sounds nice and all, but production on the field is far more meaningful. In the small sample of 34 career playoff games, Young's posted a triple slash of .248/.272/.383, with a wOBA of .286 and wRC+ of 68. I'm sorry, #leadership doesn't award you any extra points for such a meager batting line.
By extension, if your argument is that he had some sort of impact on the rest of the team and how it played, that notion is baseless and unquantifiable. Adrian Beltre didn't hit 3 HR's in a game because of Face's #leadership; Nelson Cruz didn't have the greatest LCS performance in history because of Face's #leadership; Cliff Lee didn't single-handedly carry us to the World Series because of Face's #leadership.
Those things simply happened.
And I do disagree with you that there isn't one GM out there stupid enough to take on $3M-$4M of Michael Young's robust 2013 salary.
"he isn't going anywhere as long as Wash is here"
Ron Washington is not the GM, and thank God for that. If the FO wants to trade Young for a few million bucks and a Korean translator for Ryu then Wash can't do anything about it. Personally I doubt Young will get moved, but I reserve the right to hope against hope that he does. Hey I have a Young t-shirt too but it's a cruel world. If Spring Training rolls around and Young is still here then we'll deal with it. Young may have a decent 2013 but suppose he doesn't and Wash continues to not be smart to realize Young is murdering the team in the 5 or 6 hole. All of our worst fears would be realized.
I'm not some bandwagoner, I've been a huge fan for 12 years or so. I remember all those years when Young was the only great hitter on the Rangers. But times are different now. The stakes are higher and we can't allow loyalty to aging veterans to continue to be a detriment to the team. Again it would be one thing if ANYBODY trusted the manager to be reasonable about Young's ABs but good luck finding that person.
If you have ever played sports you will realize that there is always one guy that everyone looks to when things go wrong. In 2009 when Ron Washington admitted to the team of his cocaine use MY was the first to step up and say he has his back. I love how many numbers you can read off the internet, but here are some cool numbers too. Michael Young finished 8th in the MVP voting in 2011, higher than any other Ranger. The last time I checked winning more games out of 162 than any other member of your division leads you to the Playoffs, and according to baseball experts Michael Young was better than any other Rangers player and better than most other American League baseball players as well. He had a 338. batting average that year while playing 4 different positions. Baseball is a long season bud, and just posting playoff stats is ignorant. That makes Verlander look average. That makes Alex Rodriguez look terrible.
I posted that he isn't going anywhere as long as Wash is here to say that unless we get a new manager he will still be getting plenty of ab's. I truly do think that if the Rangers got a new manager his ab's would be slashed in half, but that is not going to happen.
The front office are makiing small waves towards Youngs lesser play.The Big Pooppy Bit, for one. Youngs interest is 3000 Hits, He won't make that plateau here, as a 2013 Ranger. MY does hold some interest as a proven leader, World Series & Playoff Experience. These are Qualities that are Present and NOW.Don't be surprised if he's playing for another AL Contender in 2013.I think it's more than a possibility. The FO knows the "out price" and Young knows the price paid & opportunities missed, if he stays a Ranger.The Rangers are getting Young-er... Old Horses keep the Ponies from play.
Who cares the worlds ending in 44 days. No one will know who Michael young is and ron Washington will still manage to lead the rangers to another miserable season.
Let me break it down.
If you have ever played sports you will realize that there is always one guy that everyone looks to when things go wrong.
I've played for many baseball teams in my life, and I can't remember a season, from Little League through high school, where my team didn't win more games than they lost. In fact, most seasons the team I played for had a winning percentage better than .800 (I kept track of these things). Is that because of me? No, but I've always kind of looked at myself as a natural leader on the field, and, playing catcher, I had the trust of both the pitchers and the players whom I shared the lineup card with.
Other than one year when I was younger, I wasn't the best player on any of those teams. I was simply a lesser part of the greater machine. I may have had more on-field #leadership than anyone I've ever played with, but that didn't help the team win games. The players on my teams who were better than me won the games.
I love how many numbers you can read off the internet, but here are some cool numbers too. Michael Young finished 8th in the MVP voting in 2011, higher than any other Ranger.
Yeah, and his placement in that MVP voting is laughed at by knowledgeable baseball people. He even received a first-place vote from DMN's Evan Grant, single-handedly costing him the fragment of respect he still had left.
According to the objective data (which I'm sure you hate and reject because it doesn't agree with your stance) in 2011:
Ian Kinsler - 7.5 fWARAdrian Beltre - 5.6 fWARMike Napoli - 5.6 fWARElvis Andrus - 4.4 fWARJosh Hamilton - 4.1 fWARMichael Young - 3.7 fWAR
Young had a pretty good year, and he was sixth on the Rangers in wins. He finished 8th in the MVP voting? Cool. I bet you think his Gold Glove was impressive and deserving as well, right?
He had a 338. batting average that year while playing 4 different positions.
So let me get this straight: You dog me for using statistics to justify my position and you are going to come back and tell me I'm wrong because he batted .338? Awesome. Did you know batting average doesn't mean anything? You should hang out on BBTiA and learn some stuff. Michael Young is an over-glorified single's hitter, nothing more.
And how about those four different positions? He's terrible at every one of them. Even in the prime of his career as a 2nd baseman he was below average. He has bricks for hands, zero range, a slow first step, and most of his "good" plays are because he falls over himself and sticks his glove out. He makes routine plays look outstanding, and that's not a good thing.
Baseball is a long season bud, and just posting playoff stats is ignorant.
You are right. I can agree with that. I'm not a big fan of using small samples. HOWEVER, you said he LED the team to the World Series. I'm telling you he didn't. I'm telling you, for how bad he was in the 2012 season, for how egregious it was for his name to be in the lineup and see meaningful innings in the field, he's been even worse in his postseason career.
Oh, and that first Yu Darvish pitch in Game 163? Yeah, Michael Young made an error on that play. I can't relay this information any more crystal clear for you. After all, I, personally, am using objective data. I have a subjective bias against Face, and I justify it.
^I second what eric wrote.
Eric was a natual leader on the field and well respected by his teammates.
Just ask him.
And he was a catcher from little league thru high school. Neat! Playing the only position that no one else wanted to play or was flat out the only one who had the cachter's mitt.
And MY's MVP voting is laughed at my knowlegible baseball people.
Man, all I know of you are your cocky, condescending, look-at-me-I got-a-WAR-calculator-for Christmas posts i read on this website and, dude, you really come across as an ass. Even when you make valid points, you come out looking like a dick.
To which, I'm sure you couldn't care less....but see above.
Again, I don't know you but based on the small sample size, I would bet that your former teammates and current co-workers, friends and females in general see you in quite a different light than you think they did (or do).
Lighten up, man. There is always someone with a bigger cock thank you.
And my two cents...a player like a MY goes a long way in the clubhouse instead of having a collection of, well, 'Erics' on the team. See Jim Thome, Cal Ripken, Pudge, Jeter, etc.
Awesome. Did you know batting average doesn't mean anything?
That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, to say batting average doesn't matter says that getting on base does not matter, Eric I've read some of your posts, you seem like a knowledgable baseball guy and I agree with most of the things you say, but to say batting average does not matter is simply ignorant, I read bbtia all the time and I agree that WAR is an important stat, but it does not tell the whole story. Alex Gordon finished 7th in war this year in the american league according to baseballreference.com higher than Prince Fielder, higher than R.A, Dickey, and higher than Derek Jeter, and higher than Joey Votto, so tell me Eric about this flawless stat that you have found, matter of fact how about every team throws out scouting and let's computers do it for them. Oh wait, that has already been tried they are called the Oakland A's and they have sucked the past 9 years, and they won the division this year thanks to Texas and LAA not playing up to their potential, yeah I'm sure you loved Moneyball awesome story about war, but they had Tim Hudson, Mark Mulder, Barry Zito, Miguel Tejada, and Jermaine Dye. That's 3 Cy Young contenders and 2 MVP's. Looking at WAR stats alone lead you to drafting Jeremy Brown in the first round. It doesn't take a computer to know a player is talented.
Michael Young also led the team in RBI's in 2011 with 106, but I am sure that is another irrelevant stat, right? There's another one of your little computer stats that can beat that right? The last time I checked, the best way to beat the other team is to score more runs than them, but maybe there's a sabermetric that proves that its not really scoring more runs than the other team that counts.
I said he led the clubhouse, sir, I did not say he led the team, there is a difference in that, and you said you play sports, and since you play sports you know that leaders are neccessary in the clubhouse, especially when men are around each other for 200 plus days out of the year together, fights happen, people straight up don't like each other sometimes, but their is always someone in the clubhouse to level it all out, and that was Michael Young, I am not saying he is God's gift to Earth, but give the man some respect, he is trying to do the same thing that we all are, win a championship, and he is putting way more effort into it than anyone on this website thats for sure. Yes he was in the lineup way too much this year, I said that in the opening, but that isn't on him, that is on the manager to play him.
Your whole last paragraph is beating a dead horse, go to the top and look at my very first sentence. I know his skills are diminishing, but here is my whole point, Michael Young has done way to much for this franchise. Who would always be the one in the 2000s you wanted up with the game on the line, I don't take you for a bandwagoner Eric, but I can't blame you if you are, this team was hard to watch in the 2000s
Saying my post is baseless and unquantifiable is false, I have my opinion and you have yours, we agree on some things and disagree on others, but I'm not ignorant and I know baseball, and I don't have to read computer formulas off of a paper to know if someone is good or not. Michael Young was NOT good this year, but he was good in the past, and it wasn't that long ago either.
@H33. The thought of MY getting any kind of meaningful playing time makes me want to move to Houston and root for the Astros. His salary is a sunk cost so it makes more sense to let him go than try to get value from him in 2013. I never had the chance to hang in the clubhouse so this leadership business is ephemeral to me. I do watch the games and I don't need to look at his UZR to see he can't field; I've seen enough of his batting to know he can't hit: he is behind the fastball, has no power, and is a GIDP machine. It just so happens my observations, as amateur as they are, coincide with the negative WAR and other dismal metrics used to measure performance. Leadership is nice, but baseball isn't about being nice. Baseball is about playing the game well and playing good baseball is something MY can do no longer. He does not contribute to wins, he helps to create losses.
If you appreciate his leadership, send him a nice letter thanking him for all the good times and memories. Send a letter to the Rangers imploring them to make him a scout or some kind of Goodwill Ambassador at Large. Name your first born after him. But keep him off the playing field and don't let him waste another Ranger AB or roster spot.
You are kind of over looking the point of my post, I'm not saying he is still a good player, just that he once was and he at least deserves some respect. If you want to move to Houston and root for the Astros that is your business. To say he has no value at all is also false, he actually had decent numbers against left handers this year. He hit 333. with a 371 obp and a 794 ops. So maybe you didn't watch him closely. He still has value, just not much in the field, he would be a great asset as a platoon dh. You can move to Houston and root for the Astros if you want, I think you will re-think Michael Young's abilites then for sure.
So for pointing out MY's downfall we should be sentenced to become Astros fans? Got it.
I think you're onto something actually let's trade MY to Houston they need a DH.... lol
And you may be right about Young having value as a platoon DH... the problem is we don't have a manager who is smart enough to realize that Young is no longer an everyday player. So given the choice between Young being in the lineup 150 times or zero times, give me zero. The time for "respect" is at his jersey retirement ceremony in 2016 or so.
Surely you are aware that people are different on the field seeing game action than when they are in front of a computer typing out their opinions. I know you know this. I think the problem you have with me is that I'm just as competitive in either venue, and any other venue, for that matter. Being a teammate is like being a brother; I liked most of the guys I played with and would do anything for them between the lines. That's why most of them liked me back. There's a lot of mutual respect there, a lot like the respect I have for many of the posters on this very site.
I know all you know of me is the words you see on BBTiA, but don't let that fog the difference between this website and reality. They are two diametrically opposing points of reference.
You are right about one thing though, there are a fair assortment of women that hate my guts.
That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, to say batting average doesn't matter says that getting on base does not matter...
Wrong. There's a big difference between the two. Hitting for a high batting average does not equate to having a high on base percentage; conversely, having a high on base percentage doesn't mean a player has a high batting average. The former is Michael Young (6.6% career BB rate), and the latter is more important.
...so tell me Eric about this flawless stat that you have found, matter of fact how about every team throws out scouting and let's computers do it for them.
Wrong #2. Scouting tells a bigger story than computers do, but the majority of the time, good scouting leads to good computer numbers. I don't need to look at WAR to know a player is good or not good. Hell, even when Michael Young was leading the league in hits and posting high batting averages I could still see he was below average defensively, couldn't steal bases, and was never very good at slugging the ball. Again, over-glorified single's hitter.
Oh wait, that has already been tried they are called the Oakland A's and they have sucked the past 9 years, and they won the division this year thanks to Texas and LAA not playing up to their potential...
Wrong #3. In life, there's this little thing... I can't seem to think of it... wait... wait! I know! It's called MONEY. Oakland, that other team in California, they have none. Their entire organizational paradigm would look completely different if they had as much money as the Rangers. But they don't. They groom players for 3-4 years and sell them at peak value, then do the same thing with the prospects they net in return. Check it out, bro.
Michael Young also led the team in RBI's in 2011 with 106, but I am sure that is another irrelevant stat, right?
Right #1. RBI is a stat based on opportunity, not talent level. For years we've been force-fed the same narrative through the national media, and it's apparently a flavor of Kool-Aid you tend to enjoy. Over the course of his career, now get this, or turn away now because it's a SABR stat, Michael Young has produced a clutch factor of 0.26. That's twenty-six one-hundreths of a point above zero, meaning he's basically been as clutch as a person with average clutch-ness. We don't hear anything when Michael Young grounds into a double play in a critical situation, but boy when he dribbles a 14-hopper through the 5-6 hole it's "Michael Young comes through in the clutch again!"
I said he led the clubhouse, sir, I did not say he led the team, there is a difference in that, and you said you play sports, and since you play sports you know that leaders are neccessary in the clubhouse, especially when men are around each other for 200 plus days out of the year together, fights happen, people straight up don't like each other sometimes, but their is always someone in the clubhouse to level it all out, and that was Michael Young...
Sorry, are you talking about the same Michael Young that complained when the team called up Elvis Andrus to replace him at shortstop? Are you talking about the same Michael Young that again complained when the team asked him to move off of 3rd to make room for Adrian Beltre? The same guy that threw a bitch fit through the media and demanded a trade before the 2011 season? You can't be talking about Michael Young, the Face Of The Franchise. He doesn't exist. That guy lives in the fantasy world created by the media.
Saying my post is baseless and unquantifiable is false, I have my opinion and you have yours, we agree on some things and disagree on others, but I'm not ignorant and I know baseball, and I don't have to read computer formulas off of a paper to know if someone is good or not.
This is why we're here, no? I've gladly expressed my opinion and backed it up with objective data, objective meaning there's no personal bias against Michael Young. You are using outdated stats like batting average and RBI, and #leadership, which cannot be quantified.
Just so we're clear, I don't think you're stupid. I'm saying if you're such a regular reader on this site you should take in what Joey is saying and illuminate yourself. You don't agree with WAR or wRC+ or wOBA, but only because it doesn't agree with how you feel about Michael Young.
Use your mind on this one. Ignore your heart.
Alright, dude look we could go at this all offseason, but I really do not have time to be posting about this topic all off season, here is my thing with Michael Young. He is a player on my favorite team, you have your stats I have mine, but I don't think you have always held these views on Michael Young, and to say he was never good based on WAR, and UZR and all the new sabermetrics is your entitlement, but that was not even the point of my post in the first place, I just want the dude to have some respect, I noticed Michael Young complaining about playing time a little bit every time he gets demoted, but he is a human being. If your boss comes in and says hey Eric I don't want you doing as much on this project anymore, I have a young guy who I think is better than you, I have a feeling you would do the same thing, but notice once the first pitch was thrown you never heard a peep from Young. To say he is not good and never was good is seriously misguided and you aren't looking past stats on a computer screen. If we were talking in person thiis would be different, because I feel like we could have a better conversation, but we aren't Go Rangers, with or without Michael Young
Notify me of follow-up comments via email.