What is your opinion of the A.J. Pierzynski signing?
MJH on accountability
I've read in posts located on ESPN that the Indians could possibly be entertaining the idea of trading away Carlos Santana and Chris Perez. Now I'm not entirely sure of how much it would cost in terms of prospects and/or players but I would definitely like to work something out for those two indeed.
What would you offer in a package for both of those players?
I would deal Holland straight up for Santana, but Cleveland would likely want more than just Dutch.
Perez is overrated and his price will be inflated by his save stats. But he would just be a setup guy here, so I would not pay the price Cleveland will likely want for him.
Here's more on Santana:
Santana is mediocre defensively at C which is why CLE played him a lot at 1B. Think we'd have to Napoli him and limit his starts at C in order to not overexpose.
Gotta tell ya, not that interesting.
What would it take to get D'Arnaud? Would holland/kinsler work? That would free up cash to sign greinke...
You don't trade multiple proven big leaguers for an unproven prospect. You trade multiple un proven prospects for a proven big leaguer.
You're doing it wrong.
You probably won't get much for Ian, not because he's not good (he is), but because he carries with him a $75m debt. Trading Ian is likely a bad idea. Unless you're going for a salary dump like the Red Sox this year.
That wasn't me above, by the way.
I agree with Andy's (fake Andy?) assessment on Kinsler. I don't see Kinsler going anywhere. Teams would be interested in him but his value is very low right now compared to the quality of player he is. You wouldn't be able to get the kind of return that you should be able to since he had a down year and his big contract kicked in. It's much more likely Andrus is traded and Profar moves into SS.
Believe it or not we NEED a good 2nd baseman and in case you haven't noticed, they don't grow on trees. Kins is probably a top five 2B and it would be a mistake to deal him. And before you throw the Profar thing at me, realize that Elvis will be a FA in 2 years and with Boras as his agent, and assuming he stays healthy and continues to hit for average and steal bases, you're looking at Jose Reyes type money... probably in the neighborhood of 6yrs $125M. I don't think Profar's real value to this team is replacing Kins at 2B... it's in replacing a potentially $125M SS. With that said, if JD was somehow able to sign Elvis before he becomes a FA, on a team friendly deal similiar to what Longoria was signed to after his rookie season, maybe trading Kins makes sense and then you do move Profar to 2B... but that ain't happening. Elvis is going to want the big bucks and he's willing to wait until he becomes a FA. Besides, I don't think Boras does those type of deals anyway. He's going to advise Elvis to stay on the FA path no matter what. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised if he told Elvis to wait even if the Rangers threw a very reasonable 5yr/$75M type deal at him. Boras is greedy and he is very, very good at what he does. He will get some team to pony up a ridiculous contract. He will manufacture a bidding war that will push Elvis way out of the Rangers payroll. Think about it, if the Yankees can squeeze another 2 yrs out of Jeter, they could be in line to go after Elvis and you can only imagine what kind of money they'd be willing to spend. It will be astronomical.
If the Rangers have already decided they won't resign Elvis, then he will obviously be traded... but they are not going to trade Kins anytime soon and even if they did, they would be selling low. It is an interesting conversation though... especially if Profar explodes in spring training and pushes their hand. Regardless, I think we all can bank on Kins and Elvis being a Texas Ranger for at least the 2013 season.
@Pablo, that was very well put and I agree with everything you said except that Kinsler and Andrus will be the starters in 2013. I think Andrus gets traded this off season while his value is extremely high, instead of waiting one more year, but that's just my guess.
I should clarify, Kyle. The "above" I was referring to was the "Gotta tell ya" comment. That wasn't me. The other 2 were.
I think Andrus' value is high but will get higher because he will become a better player. He's just entering his prime, so if we trade him now, and he continues to get better, we undersold on him. Unless you have King Felix, etc, coming back, I would rather hold on to possibly the best SS in baseball for the next decade. We can sign him when he's up, we're not the small-market Rangers anymore.
@Tim I understand and agree that Elvis is a great short stop and is just entering his prime. But that is what smart teams do... they trade away their excess pieces at a high value. His value will never be higher because right now he is controllable for pennies for 2 years. If you don't trade him and you resign him, what do you do with Profar and Kinsler. You can leave Profar in AAA to do nothing, or make him a UI and ride the bench a lot more than he should be. Although he couldn't be a UI because Young is there. Say you move Kinsler to the OF and put Profar at 2nd. 1) Kinsler's bat does not translate to an above average OF'ers bat 2) you have no idea how he's going to be defensively as an outfielder and 3) your moving Profar from his natural position to a new position (although I doubt this would be an issue). You wouldn't trade Kinsler because he is way undervalued around the league right now, coming off a down year and hitting a bigger contract. And you wouldn't trade Profar because even though he is a top prospect, he's still just that in other teams eyes, a prospect. And if they were going to move him they would have done it last year.
As I see it the best option the Rangers have is to trade Elvis this off season. I love the guy and think he is a great clubhouse presence, but I think it's best for the club. I know JD is a wizard and will probably whip up something none of us have even thought of, but is there anything I said that is really arguable?
BTW, I'm loving these discussion and I'm glad there are people on this site willing to have an intelligent, educated, mostly relaxed conversation about this stuff!
Oops, you caught me. That was me in a fake "andy" disguise, in my typical hater mode of bashing everything offered for discussion. I'm a scared internet-bully-wannabe, often afraid to use my own screen name.
We're not trading Kins. Get over it.
I would be interested in Carlos Santana, and that would likely be a trade based on pitching, because Cleveland has none (how's that Ubaldo Jimenez trade looking?). I'd be curious how much more beyond Martin Perez and Cody Buckel they'd be interested in. I would go so far as to add Roughned Odor and Ramon Mendez to that group. Santana is an elite hitting catcher.
How about Russell Martin? Obviously not as good as he used to be, but if he is only about $6M per year, that may be a decent option
Elvis is a very good player. Elvis is a 4 win player now, but I have a hard time imagining his offense or defense improving enough to push him too much higher. Elvis just doesn't have the ceiling of a young ARod, Jeter or even Garciaparra, from the last generation of young short stops. There is a lot of value in a consistent 4 win player, but I think if you want to resign Elvis you're hoping he can become more then he is right now. There is a chance that Profar can become better then that, the 4 win player. To me you don't want to move either of them off of SS because both can play the position.
I'll be in the minority here, but I think what we're seeing with Elvis is about what Elvis is always going to be. He may develop a little more pop, but he's never going to be a 15 homer guy. And his speed is going to diminish from here on out, not increase. Don't get me wrong, I love the guy. He's a premium skill set at a premium position. But I question whether we can expect him to get much better than he already is. As much as I love him, he's exactly the type of guy you trade for a bundle of good-to-great prospects when you've got a talent like Profar behind him. And you don't keep a premium position guy like Profar at 2nd base for anything more than a brief stop-gap period. He's a shortstop. Don't devalue his skill set by making him a second baseman.
He is 24 years old.
Profar is 19 and is less filled out and already has more power. I like to compare Andrus to Reyes because, well, thats the most recent elite SS to hit the market. In his age 23 season, Reyes had 19 HRs, and in his age 24 season he had 12 HRs. Elvis has never hit more than 6. If his power WAS going to develop to > 10 hrs a year, it would have probably started showing up this year. Profar is good for >10 already at a younger age and has the same plate discipline elvis has developed. What makes profar so special is that his floor isnt much below andrus' ceiling.
Back to the original question of trading for Santana or Perez... This is a reasonable question and something the front office would look into, because since Ivan Rodriguez left, when has the catching position ever been stable? Napoli had a huge year in 2011, but I don't think anyone in baseball thinks he is capable of ever putting up those numbers again, and it would be tough to even get near those numbers, and I haven't even brought up that he is not a full time catcher. The power numbers will still be there, but is he worth signing to a multi year deal to be the primary catcher, I don't think so. Catching in the Major Leagues is not easy to come by, Santana is a good catcher, but trading Holland or Kinsler for Santana would be foolish. If you trade Holland, who becomes the number 3 starter next season? We love to blame Hamilton and Young for the late season collapse, but we forget that the rotation is really what lost the division for the Rangers, sure 1-4 was solid, but they lost 7 of the last 8 starts by Feldman and the last 3 by Martin. That # 5 spot in the rotation was a revolving door when Feliz and Lewis went down, and Holland is here for at least four more years. It would be foolish to trade Kinsler because he is an elite second baseman, he is one year removed from being dubbed the Rangers MVP by this website, baseball is a sport where elite players can perform at a high level well into their 30s. The Rangers will bounce back in 2013 with a little different looking team this much is sure.
You can't trade Ian, but it's not because he's too awesome to get rid of. Even if he's no longer an elite 2B (and I think he still is), he comes with a $75m debt. That offsets a lot of his value. They're better off including probably a B prospect at a position the recipient needs.
BOS is looking at Russ Martin despite having Salty and Lavarnaway, in part to hurt the Yanks:
Wonder if they'd make Salty available if they landed Martin. He's a switch-hitter and basically the same hitter as Arencibia (mucho power, horrible BA and OBP and whiffs a ton), but a few months older and worse defensively. Would we want him back or is it a case of bridges having been burnt? Can't see BOS asking for more for Salty than TOR would ask for Arencibia.
There's some truth to what you're saying but remember, Kinlser's contract gets better as he ages in terms on dollars owed.
Kinsler is set to make $16 million in both 2014 and 2015, $14 million in 2016 and $11 million in 2017. The team option in 2018 could be become guaranteed at $12 million and includes a $5 million buyout.
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