What is your opinion of the A.J. Pierzynski signing?
MJH on accountability
Profar is staying in a Rangers uniform. He simply will not be traded for any reason.
The only reason Andrus would be considered in any trade talks would be if the Rangers have a very strong sense that they won't be able to resign him to a long term deal before he hits the FA market in a couple seasons.
For whatever reason, whether it's the fact that Elvis is one of the top SS in the league right now, the fact that he is still only 24 years old, or maybe a little player favoritism on my part, I don't think there is any way the Rangers allow Andrus to be traded. He means too much to this club to be shipped off.
Find me a way to get Price to Texas for a package that doesn't include Profar/Andrus and I'll give it some more thought.
Justin Upton isn't a good fit in any clubhouse... he feels he's entitled to be treated like a king and not have to do the work to be worth it. They don't want him in Arizona... why would we want him here?
And, his brother is worse. He's a lazy, self-promoting, arrogant bastard that shouldn't be drawing a Major League paycheck.
Got any more subjective bullshit? How would you know if either of the Upton's were bad in the clubhouse? Because of some article you read 4 years ago?
Today's MLB Trade Rumors has a piece on the Rays, noting that the Rays would give a hard look at a trade of Price or Shields for the likes of a Wil Meyer, Profar or Olt. I agree with the concept but Eric has pointed out the unlikelihood of an Olt trade with Longoria at third. But that is the price being bandied about for Price.
Couldn't TB use Olt at 1B? They've been looking for a long-term 1B'man for forever, and Pena's gone.
Not a bad idea, Kristen. Also, Joe Maddon likes to move guys around a lot. He had several guys play 3B when Longoria was out of the lineup or DHing. Olt could be beneficial to them that way.
This "Upton is bad in the clubhouse" meme is getting pretty tired.
Remember when Milton Bradley and Adrian Beltre weren't supposed to be good clubhouse guys? They seemed to work out pretty well for us. It's amazing what a change of scenery and new teammates can do for a guy.
I posted this in the "Dream Lineup" thread and marked this down as an unlikely trade scenario:Ogando, Olt, Perez, L. Martin, Sardinas for Price
This would have to hinge on TB being OK with Olt at 1B, which is likely given their constant struggles there. That's pretty much a one stop shop to fill most of their needs moving forward. Only thing missing is a legitimate MLB starter. If that's the case I would be ok with:If we sign Greinke:Harrison, Olt, Gentry, Sardinas, LouxIf we don't sign Greinke:Holland, Olt, L. Martin, Grimm, Sardinas
Obviously I would prefer the first trade, even if lower level prospects would need to be added. Especially since I traded Holland/Grimm for Butler in my dream lineup.
P1, thats giving up a lot. I haven't seen any recent prospect lists, but Olt, Perez and Martin were all top 5 prior to this season. Sardinas would be a top 5 in a bunch of other organizations. And Ogando is the only guy besides Nathan who I feel comfortable with in our bullpen right now (and I'd like to see him as our #5 to start the season anyway).
I just don't think we need Price that bad. For all the young (read: cheap) talent you're giving up and would have to replace with free agents you could easily afford to outbid everyone for Grienke. I fear if we go your route we wouldn't be able to afford a single free agent in 2014.
Darvish, Holland, Harrison, Ogando is a pretty good start to a rotation without blowing up the farm to get somebody else.
@HenchmenI understand being hesitant bc that is a ton of cheap talent going out, but I think we're pretty stocked at all of those positions to do it. If Tampa is going to trade anyone, it's Shields. (I would) But if you want Price, they need to be blown away and come away with long term financial security. I think my trade gives them that.
If we can keep Harrison our top 4 would be:DarvishPriceGreinkeHarrison
Who cares who the #5 starter is with that. You could plug Ross, Buckel or Grimm there and be fine. OrYou could say F it and trade Cruz/Buckel/Garcia for Josh Johnson and roll out:DarvishPriceGreinkeHarrisonJohnson
Lets win a damn World Series.
Couldn't TB use Olt at 1B? They've been looking for a long-term 1B'man for forever, and Pena's gone.
True, but Mike Olt has shown no signs that he's ready to take over and be a full-time anything, let alone the most commanding offensive position on the diamond. He'd be losing his plus-glove value from 3rd base and his bat wouldn't translate as well from a WAR perspective.
By Tampa saying they'll hold out their pitchers only for the finest of prospects is simply posturing. The fact of the matter is, David Price is going to make too much through arbitration for them to afford. To that end alone, he basically has to leave.
This. I've found myself agreeing more and more with you lately.
I get where you're coming from but the best rotation in recent memory couldn't make it happen for the Phillies this year. Like we talked about a month ago; the playoffs are a bit of a crapshoot once you get there. The goal should be to get there as often as you can and keep a balanced team on the field. You'll win one eventually. Don't expect the Yankee dynasty to be the norm.
If you roll with Darvish ($11M), Price($11M+), Greinke($18M?), Harrison (Arb eligible) and JJ($14M) you suddenly have $60M+ tied up in 5 players. The Ranger's organization cannot yet afford that unless you want to roll out scrubs in 2 OF spots, catcher, and 3-5 bullpen roles. We still have to spend money (and prospects) wisely.
@ Eric, why is Profar ready but Olt is not?
I also think you underestimate Elvis' influence and pending leadership moving forward. We're losing Josh, Cruz, Face and maybe Murph and Ian by the end of next season, so I think the owners want some familiar players to root for. Just my opinion, but I consider it likely.
I also don't see the need for Upton, especially since he's having problems with the manager in Arizona. OF bat isn't really necessary right now, with Martin/Gentry, Murphy and Cruz, but pitching is. If we start making trades, we need to trade for pitching.
Nah, dawg. Not sure if you know, but Ian Kinsler just signed a 5-year/$70M extension. He's not going anywhere. You do realize the #leadership argument is a pretty subjective one, right? Certainly you know Michael Young's #leadership didn't add any more wins to his -1.4 fWAR this past season.
An outfield of Murphy/Martin/Cruz doesn't provide enough offense. I mean, maybe if we had a dominant 1st baseman and designated hitter, but we don't. We need a bat, and Upton seems like the only obviously viable option.
Our pitching was decent last year. Yes, we could use Zach Greinke or David Price. But if we do acquire a TORP, we're also going to need a bat to supplement the loss of Josh Hamilton.
Don't forget we might lose Napoli too. Losing 66 HR's in one offseason = disaster.
Re: Napoli. This is a tough one. It will be hard to replace his production at catcher and he isn't cheap. If he goes elsewhere it makes getting a power hitting OF even more of an imperative.
Yes, I know Kinsler signed the extension, but you certainly know he can be traded, now or in the future. I'm not saying that is going to happen, but it certainly could.
As for the leadership argument, of course it is subjective, but that doesn't make it non-existent. MY had a horrible year, so what's your point? Is he no longer the clubhouse leader he has been the last decade? Look, I agree with a lot of what you have been saying about the offseason, but you contradict yourself on the Olt/Profar issue. Profar is ready so trade Andrus, but Olt is not so we can't rely on him. What do you base that on other than subjectivity?
I don't really like Justin Upton and I LOVE Andrus, so I'm against your plan, but that doesn't mean you're not right that it might happen or that it might be good for the club. It's just that your argument is just as subjective as mine. Why not go ahead and trade Beltre along with Andrus? Beltre only has three more years and he's represented by Boras so we won't be able to re-sign him, same as Andrus. We also have Olt to step in and play now, so what you say about Andrus, I can say about Beltre, right? My point is I don't think this team in this market should be scared of signing their best players (of which both beltre and Andrus are) just because it might cost a lot of money. We're a top 5 market, and we can afford Andrus.
OF offense is plenty if we can upgrade our pitching, and maybe if we can't. Just because w're losing Hamilton doesn't mean we have to get another "Hamilton" to be able to win.
Losing 66 HR's isn't a disaster if we have better OBP and situational hitting. The SF Giants had the fewest HR's in the NL this season with about 100 less than the Rangers this season.
You folks need to stop looking at things so black and white. Shades of grey.
Like 50 shades of gray? Dun dun DUUNNN!!!
Our park makes players look like Barry Bonds in summer, but in April and October, the cooler weather makes the Ballpark closer to a pitchers park or at least neutral. Absent the chance to get some SuperSluggers, I'm much more a fan of consistent OBP for building the roster.
^ This. That's why I want Swisher (FA) and Butler (Trade Holland/Grimm) in my dream lineup. Is anyone else tired of the rookie pitcher breezing through our lineup?
I don't consider my opinion to be a subjective one. In the Profar/Olt argument, I'm relying on scouting reports. Also, Profar is here to fill a void of an expensive shortstop who will be moving on in two years regardless. Mike Olt isn't a replacement for anyone right now, as both Adrian Beltre and Mitch Moreland are better than he is at this juncture, and they are still controllable.
Whether we can afford Elvis Andrus or not, it's still bad business to pay him 8-10/150-200 when his replacement will be making league minimum for the next three years. Also, Profar is just as, if not more talented than is Andrus.
Let's say we don't re-sign Ham or Nap and don't trade Andrus. We're then looking at a lineup filled with Andrus/Profar/Kins/Beltre/Moreland/Cruz/Murphy/Martin. I'm sorry, even if we do acquire a TORP, that isn't enough offense. With the ballpark we play in, we should be a top-5 run-producing team in baseball on an annual basis. That lineup does not provide that.
I guess I still don't know how you "know" all of this stuff you're saying. Profar better than Andrus now, is what you are saying, because you want to trade Andrus. Olt not better than Beltre and Moreland right now is also what you are saying, because you don't want to trade Beltre or Moreland. You "know" these things because scouting reports tell you that?
Where does "controllable" end? Andrus is not controllable because he'll be gone in two years regardless. We can't sign him because we're a small market team is what you are implying....or we shouldn't sign him because we have a better replacement in Profar that we don't know is actually better yet, but let's continue. Beltre IS controllable because he's signed for a year longer (maybe two if he vests, but that is not guaranteed). Moreland is controllable but Olt won't be better than him either, is what you are saying.
My point in running through all of this is to show you how narrow-minded your thought process seems on trading Andrus. You've already traded him in your mind because of a series of hypotheticals you believe will unfold moving forward. I don't agree with all of those and would rather let some of this play out before trading what could be the best SS in baseball (Andrus) for a decade to come.
I know who Profar is and I know he could be better than Elvis, but that won't be next year. I just look at this team and think they will be better with Elvis on it next year and probably the next as well. If he leaves after that, so be it, but I don't think that has to be the case. I think they can re-sign him to a fair deal and I think Profar ends up playing 2B with Kinsler either traded at some point in the next couple years or he ends up replacing Cruz/Murph in the OF. That's just my opinion but one I'd much rather see than trading Andrus right before his prime. I feel we would be trading him before his best years and that would hurt me something fierce.
I know trading our star with 2 years of service time worked with Tex, but we were in a different era of Rangers baseball then. Why can't we be a big league club and hold on to our best players. This isn't fantasy baseball and fans like rooting for players they know. If you don't re-sign Hamilton and Napoli, while letting go of FACE, Murph, Cruz and Andrus within the year, it could lead to some fan discontent, and that is something ownership has to keep an eye on.
As for the offense, I think the SF Giants have shown that offense isn't the biggest issue when it comes to the postseason, but rather pitching and situational hitting is. If we don't hit as many homers but hit smarter with more patience then we can still win that way, especially if we upgrade our pitching.
Oh well, I guess we'll see over the next couple of months what happens, and no hard feelings either way with you buddy, just talking Rangers. I'm not one of the posters that seem to hate you so much, whatever that's about.
"You're talking about a guy in Profar who will, at the basement, generate 20.0-24.0 WAR over the next 6 years"
I find statements like this......presumptive. This assumes either:
A) Profar plays at a ~3.5 WAR clip for six years from age 20 to 25...orB) Profar plays at ~5 WAR clip and misses around 1-2 year of playing time
So basically we're assuming he's Elvis Andrus productive from the day he starts playing at age 20.
Call me cynical, but I just can't ASSUME this will happen as if it's a fact. Injuries happen. Prospects turn out not to be as good as expected.
While I would agree it's more likely than not that Profar generates 20 WAR over the next six year, I do not make the conclusion that it's IMPOSSIBLE for him to fail that number. I'd say there's at least a 25% chance the Profar doesn't meet that target.
I guess my point is that production can never be assumed, regardless of the pedigree. I'm sure based on his consistent production throughout his career and outstanding 2011 that if I had said "there's a possibility that Kinsler won't contribute more than 2.0 WAR in 2012 despite playing 157 games" I'd have been called a cynic.
But I also would have been right.
Just read the second page...and have to agree with Tim.
Those who say Rangers can't afford Andrus in 2015 and Kinsler can't be moved....and Olt isn't good enough but Profar is a sure stud......are all making projections. None of these things are immutable FACTS. Like Tim I'm not saying they won't come to pass or shouldn't come to pass. But to just etch them in stone as if there are no other options seems a very narrow vision.
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