What is your opinion of the A.J. Pierzynski signing?
MJH on accountability
Some people on here are getting riduclous. I would love to win now, and think we have a good chance, but there is no point to trade away all of our farm and a few ML players just to get 2 All-stars at the MLB level that probably wouldn't stick around to long. It's handicapping our future. I would love to get Price as long as it is at the right "price" not something like Andrus, Holland, Gentry, and another prospect.. that's stupid. I would love to get Upton, but not at the price of Andrus, Olt, plus another high level prospect. That is again stupid.
I do agree that some deals need to be made to make this team a better contender this next year, but lets not trade away our future and one of the best farms in the MLB just so we have the chance to win these next 2-3 years and then go back into the drain. Yall will think i'm crazy but I believe that even if no moves were made we would still be a good contender for the division.
Good thing JD makes the moves and not anyone on a fan site
I agree that giving that much up for Upton is too much but if the Rangers can get Price with an extension for that little then I'd take that deal in a heartbeat.
It amazes me people on this site undervalue the rangers own in general and even more how much they undervalue Andrus specifically. FACT: Andrus is more valuable than Justin Upton. He's younger, he plays the far more premium position, he's improved every season while J Upton has regressed, and Andrus has a reputation as a positive clubhouse influence whereas Upton is seen as lazy. Andrus is a top 3 player at perhaps the hardest position to fill in baseball. You look at what Cliff Pennington just netted the A's and try to tell me that Andrus is not going to net an Ace borderline straight up.
Olt is good enough to centerpiece an Upton deal. If it's Price for Andrus (which I have trouble believing given TB TRADES AWAY players at Andrus career point), you might have to add a prospect, but it's at most one player- Perez perhaps. I understand Aces are the key to success, but look around the league and convince me there aren't more player comparable or close to Price than Andrus. You can get Greinke in FA, go after reclamation projects like Lincecum- Felix might be had at the right price, Lee is older but still putting up Price quality numbers. How many SS's can do what Andrus does? Please stop the madness.
If there is an offseason to make a splash, it's this one. I go back and forth on giving up valuable assets for other valuable assets, but I come back around on the idea every time. The same team we had last year plus a couple of decent additions will not win next year. If you offer me Price, I take it every time. He is an ace pitcher, one of the few in the MLs. Sure, you'll give up a lot for him. But I think with these trade ideas, you have to remember who is making them. JD has made good move after good move for several years now. For all we know, he could put a package together for Price without putting in Profar, Olt, or Andrus that would be appealing to the Rays. He will make smart moves. I just hope that he will make some moves that will 1) make the team younger 2) allow the team to rely more on small ball, speed, and defense (which is what Wash likes anyway) and 3) improve the starting rotation is some form.
I'll give you 3 letters to learn from when valuing prospects.
... I'll say it again. I think people on this site undervalue Elvis. He's truly top 3 shortstop in the league, and he's only getting better.
It's within the realm of possibilities that Elvis continues to mature and puts up >4.0 WAR seasons consistently into his 30's. We could be looking back in 3-5 years and say, "Keeping Elvis was the best decision we ever made," or "Man, we really gave away too much when we traded Elvis."
If there is an offseason to make a splash, it's this one.
I guess you're rowing in the 'win now' boat? The more and more I think about it, there is never an offseason to make a splash. If you're building your organization the right way and always planning for the future you won't need a splash. You know what splashes did for the Angels, Red Sox, & Dodgers? NOTHING. They all played one game less than we did.
Baseball is such a grind you can expect the unexpected to happen multiple times through 162+. A lot of guys said last year was our year to win. Then Colby & Feliz went down. Ogando & Koji missed time, and Adams wasn't healthy at the end of the year. We all know how Michael Young performed and Ian, Nap played worse than we all expected. Would making one or two more 'splashes' last offseason affected the outcome of this October?
I'm pretty comfortable saying 'No'.
If you're making trades or acquisitions in order to make a splash, you're probably doing it wrong. As I think Henchmen implied, if your team is built right, simply signing one high profile free agent won't suddenly make a huge "splash" among the fanbase and multiply attendance several-fold. I don't think the Rangers signed Yu with the intent of attracting tons more fans, they did it because they saw him as an ace. While I'm sure a few people may have been converted based on watching Yu, the fanbase was growing already and I doubt it would have been thousands less (below 3 million) even if they hadn't signed Yu.
Henchman and Andy, you guys do make good points. There is a lot of sense in standing pat and not going out on a limb to make a big trade, sign a big name free agent, or whatnot. I really would rather make a big trade rather than go after free agents, particularly starting pitchers. The track record for starting pitchers signing big free agent deals is incredibly hit and miss. As far as trades go, the only one I'm interested in is Price because he is one of the 6 or 7 best SPs in the game, plus he already pitches in the American League. If he is available, why not at least take a crack at him? By splash, I really just meant go out and make an effort to really improve this ballclub. The reason to make changes? We will probably be losing several free agents. This opens up cash. We've got young players ready to play at the big league level. Price might be availiable in the trade market. The team we have now minus Hamilton minus Napoli minus Koji and Adams will not compete. If there is an offseason where we can make some changes, I would do it now.
When the season first ended, in my frustration I was champing at the bit for a big, explosive deal and was reading all the "Trade Elvis for a TORP" posts with great interest. Now that I've had a few weeks for my sanity to return, I agree strongly with the idea of keeping Andrus. All it's going to take to keep him is money - not players, not prospects, just money - and you've answered the shortstop question for at least the next five years. Long-time fans can easily recall what the SS position was like pre-Elvis (MY, anyone? And he was an upgrade, at the time!)
I'm not against trading personnel, but please, not Andrus. He's easily in the top 5 shortstops in the game, his offense has improved every year and he seems to be a tremendous positive force in the dugout.
I say don't go overboard, don't give away the farm for one or two players. It doesn't take free agents and trades to build a good team. Look around us, there are teams that ran at the post season with home-grown stuff. I say turn our young guys loose and see how they do next year.
I guess I don't really understand the argument that continually gets waged that "Elvis's offense has improved every year." I mean, in a vacuum, yeah, it has, but it's not that great. Two years ago we thought 2011 would be his "breakout" year; it never happened. Before last year we thought 2012 would be the year he started punching the ball around more. Again, it didn't happen. I know he's still young, but his best offensive season in terms of wRC+ was in 2012 at 95. I think we should all come to grips with the idea that Elvis probably will never be much more than a 105 wRC+ guy, even in his prime.
His value will always be in his wheels and defense. Jurickson Profar can't defend or run as well as Andrus does, but I'm willing to bet at the minimum he posts a wRC+ of 95 in his first full season, and he's a guy that should annually steal 20 bases and play top-3 defense in the AL. I'm very comfortable with that tradeoff.
I agree strongly with the idea of keeping Andrus. All it's going to take to keep him is money - not players, not prospects, just money - and you've answered the shortstop question for at least the next five years.
The problem I have with this is that, if it was that simple, it would already have been done. If the Rangers could sign Elvis Andrus right now, two years before he hits free agency, they would. And then they'd be looking for an Ian Kinsler exit strategy, or, even crazier, a way to acquire almost anything they wanted for Jurickson Profar.
Elvis Andrus is a hot commodity, and we overvalue him because we know how good he is. From an outsider's perspective he's just a light-hitting shortstop who exhibits some flashy defense. But that's the way the story goes with fans. They overrate their own players and underrate players in other organizations, which is why we always see so many outlandish trade proposals on here that will never happen unless you have the force trade option clicked on your favorite baseball video game.
Very few teams run out a fully home grown array without significant trades or FA to make it work.
Baltimore was running a lot of trade pieces and FA out there, hell a lot of their core was Ex Rangers. The A's biggest offensive piece was a FA signing, and their second was traded for from Boston. The Giants developed a good deal but still had a lot of talent infused by trades and FA.
The purpose of a farm system is to help you win. Whether that is by bringing players up to the MLB roster to fill in holes, being traded to other teams to help you fill in holes, or replacing players that you trade/lose in FA. Profar and Olt are likely to be a large part of the future of this team, the next three to four years, regardless of whether they are on this team or not. They will either be here playing or they will have been traded for people that we hope are playing well.
But there is zero reason that trading either Profar, Olt or even someone like Elvis should be seen as selling out the future. The future in baseball is longer then the future in football by the nature of guaranteed contracts and the time it takes a player to become a FA, but a long term look is still only a few years.
I think many people on THIS board are under valuing him..he is a 24 year old All-star SS at one of the most premium positions in the game, I promise people outside of the Rangers see how valuable this guy is, and how much he would be worth. You guys talk about him like he has already reached his potential and won't get much better. In 3 years I fully believe he will be the best SS hands down. I still think he has a little more power potential than and he will fill up nicely in the next few years. This guy is valued around the league and could bring in something very nice to the Rangers.
To the comment about the Rangers not being able to compete next year if they don't make any moves. I would have to dis agree.Cruz, Kinsler, and Young could easily have bounce back years putting the Rangers right in the thick of things. Just look at the 2010 team, on paper they weren't that good...Feldman was the #1 starter, think about that..
Also if you think teams can't compete because of how they look on paper ask the Oakland A's what they think about that, I'm sure you'll get a different response.
Elvis' fWAR for 2012 was 4.2, fifth-best in the majors at the position. He's 24. He's a more valuable commodity, in my opinion (which, Eric, is all any of this is - opinion), than a frequently injured clubhouse cancer who doesn't play a premium position, whose 2012 fWAR was 2.5 (0.1 better than Mark Trumbo) and whose team wants him gone.
Yes Andrus is an top 3 player at a premium position, but you forget that Price is a top 3 left handed pitcher in the game and the wins he provides per season exceed Andrus even though he plays once every 5 games (check the WAR). I'm sorry if you think that Holland will ever amount to anything but a 2 IF he puts everything together but right now he's a 3 on average staffs and a 4 on any staff that hopes to have a realistic shot at the fall classic. As for Gentry and a low tier prospect, that's the price you pay when you are trying to acquire the most valuable commodity in baseball - a TORP, but I would hardly call it blowing up the farm for Christ's sake. When you have a guy like Leonys Martin that we signed to a 5 year 15 million dollar deal waiting in the wings to replace Gentry, and Perez there to take Holland's spot, and the top prospect in baseball to replace Andrus, you find that we're not "throwing away our future" but rather cultivating it. I do agree with you on the Upton deal however, but only a baboon would believe an Andrus-Upton swap is a remotely viable course of action.
Minor leaguers are chips to be used. Some play for you-others get traded. I just hope we trade some of ours before they ro on the vine. D-V-D?? If you make a good trade both teams benefit. We have some in the minors that need to be used as chips to round out our roster.
'rot on the vine'
@Joseph I agree that to get Price it could take a Andrus, Gentry, low tier prsopect. But many people on this board have been saying it would take even more than that, such as a Perez type along with that deal. Some have even said things such as trading for both of them, which would involve blowing up the farm.
I'm all for the right deal at the right price, but some of the deals and ideas mentioned on here have not been the right deal at the right price, and would in fact greatly hurt the club in the long run if they went through.
@FajitaI highly doubt trading Elviz, Perez, Gentry and another prospect for Price would hurt our club in the long term. Our farm can more than make up for the loss of Perez. We can replace all of those players with arguably the same and/or better talent. I'm all for grooming prospects, but when an opportunity arises to get a certifiable ACE (which it hasn't for all intensive purposes)...I do it. Perez is slowly on the flame out train going from Johan Santana 2.0 to a #2 pitcher...maybe. I'm not saying he can't get back to being a super prospect, but the time may be now to trade him.
If Price can be had, I'm in.
Would there be a better young 1-2 punch than Darvish/Price?
Can you imagine a Darvish/Price/Greinke/Harrison top 4 rotation?
Even if Price wouldn't sign an extension, you can still trade him for a huge haul in 3 years. I assure you, our club would not be hurting long term if we traded for Price.
I don't think just a Price trade would hurt us too bad, and thinking about it. I kinda like the idea, the rotation you stated would be quite a formidable rotation.
I have full faith in JD all i'm saying though is you make a trade for one or two players, and before you know it, payroll has shot up and we are left with a farm that was a sad shell of our former self...
Yeah, I definitely agree. I think the trades being posted involving Elvis, Olt, Murph and a prospect for Upton are way worse and a huge overpay compared to the Price trade.
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