What is your opinion of the A.J. Pierzynski signing?
MJH on accountability
In all honesty I think Price could be had for Andrus, Holland, Gentry, and lower tier hitting prospect or two.Despite the unbridled hate many of you have for Hamilton, if we can bring him back reasonably I would do so...If not throw the cash at Greinke, resign Napoli and trade guys like Perez and Olt for an impact MOTOB. With the first plan of action you Replace Andrus, Holland and Gentry with Profar, Price, and Martin, respectively. An average outing for Price equates to Holland's ceiling and while Profar and Martin would represent initial drop-offs defensively they have far higher ceilings offensively and the tools to develop into elite defenders. Plan B gives you a rotation of Price, Darvish, Greinke, Harrison, and Ogando with Feliz and Lewis as midseason reinforcements...a rotation that would easily be the deepest and most talented in baseball that more than makes up for the fall in offensive production that would come with losing Hamilton.We don't need to blow up this offense guys it was and has been the best in Baseball for years.
Andrus, Holland, Gentry and a prospect or two for one TORP? Are you nuts? Maybe if it were Justin Verlander but short of that I wouldn't give all that up for anyone.
@ CedarThat's probably not even enough and I would still do it.
Holland isn't that expensive for us, but he is expensive for Tampa Bay. That's why David Price is on the trade block this winter, because he's going to make too much through arbitration for them to afford him. Tampa wants young, cheap, controllable players. Elvis is young and cheap but not exactly controllable (only two years), but they could flip him the following year to net more than just the prospects who'll accompany Andrus in a hypothetical Price-Andrus ++ trade.
The same can be said for Andrus if he went to the Dbacks. If they have a down year in 2013 and know they won't compete in '14, they could net prospects in the final year of Elvis's contract.
Let's trade for a player who could POSSIBLY live up to his previous play in Upton.
Let's trade for one of the BEST pitchers in the game.
Just doesn't seem like a debate.
See what I did there...
There's about three issues with your point Stefen. First is Price actually available? We don't know but there hasn't been a whole lot of smoke about his availablity beyond some theoretical ideas that he should start getting expensive enough for Tampa to decide its time to move him.
Second, does Tampa actually want Elvis? Their top prospect is a SS, probably not quite the level of player that Elvis is and also probably not ready for the MLB this year, but there will be one year SS available on the market this year, assuming they aren't willing to live with Zobrist at SS for a year. i sorta doubt that Tampa will leave Zobrist at SS mostly because they seem to prize defense and I can't imagine Zobrist being a good SS over the course of a season.
Third, are we better off fixing the offense as much as we can with trades and try and sign someone like Grienke for nothing but money? We only have so much ammo to go around this year, and our biggest piece we are likely to trade is Elvis. There isn't a big bat on the market, outside of josh, to be a lineup center piece so if we are going to retool the lineup then we almost need to take a run at someone in trade. I understand the worry about Upton having to rebound, but the only reasons he's available is Gibson and a wrist injury. Otherwise I'd bet he is one of the more untouchable players in baseball.
Let's play devil's advocate with your first point.First is Elvis actually available? We don't know. You definitely can't confuse our GM for Kevin Towers. Second, I doubt the Rangers would trade Elvis AND prospects for Upton after hang ups during the trade deadline. Just my 2 cents. You can agree or disagree....obviously.Third, I've already stated on multiple posts that I would prefer to sign Ortiz to DH and sign Greinke and/or trade for a SP.
I think starting pitching is a way more pressing need than hitting. We'll still score 700+ runs regardless of who we bring on board, but our pitching is a HUGE question mark. And no, I don't want to overpay for Lohse, Vargas, etc. We have a huge tv contract about to come into play and hopefully we use that money to keep us as a legitimate contender.
We'll still score 700+ runs regardless of who we bring on board, but our pitching is a HUGE question mark.
You don't know that we we'll score more than 700 runs. That's 4.32 runs per game, which isn't very many considering we play half our games in one of the two or three best hitter's parks in baseball. Our pitching was cumulatively 2nd-best in the Majors in 2012. Losing Josh Hamilton on offense is the equivalent to losing Yu Darvish on our pitching staff. Without him, there's a huge hole, in need of a reinforcement.
Other than not having Colby Lewis and Neftali Feliz until sometime at or around the halfway point in the season, our rotation is largely intact. I'm going to assume we make a big play at Zach Greinke, (a) because he's the only pitcher on the FA market that can drastically affect our rotation, and (b) because he won't cost anything in terms of propects. If and when we address our situation on offense, then we can put our eggs in the rotation game, which I can only assume will involve a top-flight starter like Greinke, Price or Josh Johnson.
Another option I've been thinking about, which is a little off base with this discussion, is acquiring Billy Butler from Kansas City. I think he'd be a fine fit for DH if we can unload Michael Young from the roster.
My dream 2013 lineup would be:
1. Kinsler - 2B2. Profar - SS3. Upton - LF4. Beltre - 3B5. Butler - DH6. Cruz - RF7. Napoli - C8. Moreland/Olt - 1B9. Martin/Gentry - CF
If we got Butler I'd assume Napoli would be a more difficult signing because of insufficient funds, but that is a lineup that could produce 800+ runs, albeit extremely right-handed heavy. Even if you replace Napoli for Arencibia/Soto it's still a lineup that would produce enough runs to support a pitching staff that may or may not include another TORP.
"Our pitching was cumulatively 2nd best in the majors". If you can honestly believe that, stats or not, you're crazy. We lost 2 rotation pieces and replaced them with scrubs throughout the whole season. Our setup man (Adams) and best reliever at the end of the season (Koji) are both FA's and one is coming off of surgery. Our best early season reliever in Ross faded down the stretch. Holland is frustratingly inconsistent. Colby will be back midseason at best, most likely the final quarter of the season. Nefti is coming off major arm surgery and results usually come back in the second season following surgery.
You can try to stat spin it all you want, but to say you have faith in our rotation bc "our pitching was cumulatively 2nd best in the majors" is the most utterly ridiculous political spin statement I've ever heard.
I'd also like to point out your first statement justifies why I think we'll still score 700+ runs.
"You don't know that we we'll score more than 700 runs. That's 4.32 runs per game, which isn't very many considering we play half our games in one of the two or three best hitter's parks in baseball."
Indeed, it isn't very many for the stadium we play in. Assuming bounce back seasons (Kinsler), replacing Young with just about anyone, having consistency (no more Josh), and JD's ability to pick up a decent hitter... we'll be fine.
Looks like Whitesox will not pick up option for Peavy. If he can be had for around $15M for 4 years, I will go after him rather than $20+M for Grienke or mortgage our future for Price. Shields to me is no better than Dutch and we don't need another #3 or #4. We need a #2 with Yu as our TORP.
Shields is at worst a #2, about on par with C.J. At this point, I'm skeptical Holland will be a #2; I think he's more likely to be a #3 that looks amazing 15-20% of the time and terrible about 10%. I would absolutely love to trade for Shields if it didn't cost us a ton.
I would like Price more, though, because it seems like the Rangers are one of the few teams that doesn't struggle against him as much as other teams do.
Eric, what do you propose will tempt the Royals to trade Butler, a young player still under control with a team-friendly contract? Remember, the Royals are pretty much OK with position players (except for maybe 2B, but they aren't going to be interested in trading Butler for Kinsler); they need pitching. Also remember, it can't be junk.
Don't take my word for it, just go to Fangraphs and look at the team pitching stats. Rangers were 2nd in baseball. That's not just me pulling random garbage out of thin air; it's objectively verifiable.
Well, I think a move like getting Butler is contingent on acquiring a solid arm. He's owed $16M over the next two years, and has a $12.5M team option in the third year. That's 3/$28.5M for a MOTOB, which is pretty affordable, DH or not. Sabermetrics hates players like him who can't run and can't defend, and he still generated 3.2 fWAR in 2012, with a wOBA of .377 and wRC+ of 140.
To acquire him, like you said, would cost us pitching. I think it just depends on whether KC would prefer quality or quantity. If they preferred the former, I'd be willing to trade Martin Perez for Butler straight up. If they wanted quantity, then maybe a move for Justin Grimm and Cody Buckel.
@EricYou should be a politician. Just bc the stats work in your favor doesn't mean you can dismiss the facts I brought up. Those "objectively verifiable" stats don't say we're missing 2/5 of our starting rotation due to injury to start the season and most of our bullpen to FA.
You can be as dismissive as you want, but your logic is flawed if you're going purely off stats.
But I will agree I think we come away with at least one from the Price/Greinke/Johnson trio and I definitely wouldn't mind the latter 2 if we are still able to get Upton. That may be a more viable option for us.
So you're saying you consider observations to be more factual than statistics?
"So you're saying you consider observations to be more factual than statistics?"
Another politician answer....answering with a question again dismissing my facts as "observation".
So you're saying you believe our 3/5 rotation is 2nd best in baseball?
For being a guy who loves stats so much, you would think you would understand stats don't always tell the whole story. I graduated with a degree in economics. I get your infatuation with stats, and I mostly agree with them. But to justify your stats by saying we ended up with the 2nd best rotation in baseball just fails to show the big picture.
You've yet to disprove anything I've said. My observations ARE facts.
He would be a huge upgrade. His stats are still very good and he passes the "eye" test in my book. There has been speculation about trying to sign Ortiz, but Butler is younger and in his prime production years, plus he appears durable. I don't know if Perez swings it, but if he does I would not have to think about accepting that trade. I suspect it may take Holland instead, which I would gladly endorse. I think the Holland we saw in 2012 is the Holland we are going to get in 2013, which I rank as a number 4 starter
I'm a college dropout, myself.
I never said we had the 2nd best rotation in baseball. I said we had the 2nd best pitching staff in baseball, according to the metrics. And that's without Lewis and Feliz for the entire summer. It's conceivable to think we would have been first by a good margin if we had both those guys.
Again, you've yet disprove any of my points especially since I brought up issues regarding our whole pitching staff...not just the rotation, which is still the biggest concern we face moving forward in my opinion.
Justifying everything on stats is severely flawed logic.
My two cents is that acquiring Butler is absolutely going to require an established major leaguer, preferably one under control for several more years. The only pitcher that JD would trade who meets that definition is Holland, and I do think you could get the Royals to at least listen if he was offered. Not sure that your prospect offers would cut it.
Martin Perez is 22 and is making league minimum money over the next three years. You have to think about this in a production per dollar way. Perez is still a top-20 pitching prospect, who's good enough to be in the Texas Rangers rotation next year. Meaning he'd certainly be a part of KC's.
Injuries don't matter.. All 5 guys can get hurt and if their replacements pitch lights out, why can't you still have a top pitching staff? That's like saying you can't have the best offense in the league because your star got hurt, even if the teams scores 900 runs in his absence.
Darvish pitched at an all star level for the first half and like a Cy Young candidate in the latter part of the second, Harrison pitched at a Cy Young level in the first half and was solid in the second half. Nathan was untouchable and Ross was one of the best relievers before eating hurt. Those factors alone are enough to carry an entire pitching staff, most teams can't say the same.
As a Ranger fan we will always gripe at certain things, but the reality is, we have a ton of quality arms on the staff pitching in a hitter friendly park. If the Rangers sign Greinke, I don't even think any pitching staff would even come close, except maybe a healthy Philly staff.
Before getting* hurt.. Stupid iPad.
"Injuries don't matter.. All 5 guys can get hurt and if their replacements pitch lights out, why can't you still have a top pitching staff?"
I'm not discounting this notion at all. But unfortunately, "their replacements" didn't* "pitch lights out"...so yes, injuries do in fact matter.
To your point about the Rangers having "a ton of quality arms"...well, that is just simply not true.
We are talking about reality here right?
Notify me of follow-up comments via email.