What is your opinion of the A.J. Pierzynski signing?
MJH on accountability
Would you do this? Boston needs pitching and we need a centerfielder. Ellsbury had done year but was hurt...last year he was in MVP running. Has speed...showed power last year. Could help make up loss of Hamilton...prolly could move to left as well if we decide to keep Gentry/Martin rotating in center. I think you could still go out and get one of the Upton brothers too....or both. Everyone talks about Andrus for Justin Upton....do that and get B.J. via free agency. This could give us B.J. in right, Justin in center, Ellsbury in left? Cruz then goes to DH where he belongs. Thoughts?
Texas has a CF in Martin and a platoon CF in Gentry. Although 50 games from Elsbury sure is tempting...
Looks like a good plan. Although who's going to administer the massive head wound to Ben Cherington that will make such a deal possible?
If we had Feliz and Colby locked into the rotation for next year then I'd be all for this deal, but I'm not sure I'm ready to trade a controllable starting pitcher for a 1 year rental.
Rumor is Sox are not looking to extend Ellsbury anyway after next year. So send Holland and few prospects...maybe through Martin in deal?.
Holland pisses me off as much as any pitcher could, but his value to the team as a lefty who can throw 200 innings with a better than average K rate and close to 200 innings is a lot more than people are realizing. We want more consistency from the guy. Getting rid of him and then trying to replace those innings would be tough for how much money he will be making.
So find me a younger, cheaper. left handed pitcher that when healthy is going to give you all those things, then I say okay trade him. But I highly doubt the Rangers have one lying around. (Martin Perez is not that guy, but he should be an option for the rotation)
Any chance of Ross maybe being this guy? Sure...I know the innings he hasn't accumulated, but I'd be interested enough to see him get a shot at the rotation. He proved he could get both leftys and rightys out and did pretty well with K ratio. He's cheap, young, and could be way more consistent than Holland. You have Perez too who if he does improve is another young lefty.
I forgot to add that Holland is making $3.2 million next year, $5.4 million in 2014, $7.4 million in 2015 and $10 million in 2016.
I like giving Robbie and Perez both a shot in ST to earn a rotation spot, but I still don't see either supplanting Derek as the 3rd pitcher in the rotation. I will just have to put up with his frustrating walks, and arbitrary loss of a command, and 0-2 meatball homers. He will probably never figure out that Cliff Lee type command, but for how much he is making the next 2 years it's not like he needs to be. It's really a win win deal for the team, so I am not really a fan of trading a guy who signed cheaply through 2016 for an about to be 30 injury prone CF who has one year on his contract. Boras wants Jacoby to get paid in the neighborhood of 160MM, so this is bad sell from Texas' perspective.
From MLB Trade Rumors today:
It might be time for the Red Sox to use Jacoby Ellsbury as a trade chip for rotation help, Scott Lauber of the Boston Herald writes. GM Ben Cherington is expected to consider a multiyear extension for the center fielder, but agent Scott Boras figures to seek a deal in the $160MM range. The Rangers could find themselves in the market for a center fielder this offseason, so Lauber wonders if they'd make Derek Holland available in a deal for Ellsbury.
The post also states the Sox Di not think there is any chance for an extension.
If you trade Holland, if Biston takes him, a big if, then you get one year of Ellsbury unless you pay him like Hamilton. This is Elvis all over.
I read the same Primi, and I was referencing it when I mentioned Boras trying to get that 160MM. That would be a seriously unwise move by the Rangers.
My first thought was "DO THIS DEAL!" My second thought was there was no way the Red Sox would make this trade for Holland straight up, another player would have to be involved....Gentry or Martin perhaps to replace their hole in CF? My excitement level drops at that thought but still intrigued by the idea. Now, after reading Revsader's comment that Boras will want $160mm, hmmm, now that becomes a bit of a tough sale. But Ellsbury sure would be great as our CF and lead off hitter though, wow...
Giving up Holland does not bother me, I just don't see him as a consistent starter that can be counted on...my opinion...
FYI - I'm totally against trading Andrus for anybody unless he is part of a deal for a King Felix or David Price (so, no chance). He's one of the best at SS, a proven quantity and young - we should lock him up for years to come...Profar to second...
I agree I don't want to trade Andrus either...just curious about and outfield with both Upton brothers and say someone like Ellsbury. I'd be more on trading Andrus if it was to the Rays for Price...but that's not happening and the Mariners aren't letting Felix go. Yes the extension Ellsbury is seeing would likely mean that we either pony up or he's not here long. If we could send Kins to Colorado in a package and get Cargo then could be looking at Cargo, Ellsbury, BJ Upton? You keep Elvis and Profar up the middle....sign Elvis long term. Cargo is here for some time as B.J. would. Yes you would likely lose Ellsbury the next year but that give more time for Martin to develop in minor next year and then step in 2014. Infield would be set if you can lock up Elvis....looking at Beltre, Elvis, Profar and Moreland with Olt there to go to 1st or 3rd. Outfield of Cargo, Ellsbury, BJ Upton one year then replace Ellsbury with hopefully a ready to go Martin. I think Gentry has to go to Boston in deal and that sucks but got to give up something with Holland. So next year line up of:
Ellsbury - CFAndrus - SSCargo - LFBeltre - 3BCruz - DHBJ Upton - RFMoreland - 1BShoppach/Soto - C; I want Shoppach as free agent along with Upton; Nap isn't coming back - but if so Soto gone. Napoli can play 1st against lefties if Moreland strugglesProfar - 2B
Yes...make the effort to get Greinke. We save on Hamilton and likely Napoli. Spend on B.J., Shoppach, and Greinke. I left Young off I know.....we have to eat his salary and move him. Have too.
I dont know. Youre talking about 1 year of ellsbury (what maybe 6 WAR?) and 4 years of holland (maybe 3-4 per year? so 12-16 WAR?). If anything, you may be talking about the red sox throwing in something if you consider it that way.
So tell me, just how you breaking down the value of a 28 year old oft injured CF versus a 26 year old left handed starting pitcher that's tied up until 2018 at no more than 12mil per season? You guys throw out trade scenarios for the hell of it. Since pitching is the premium position in the baseball market and lefties being more than a premium, wouldn't you think that the team that needs the pitching are the ones who should offer the ransom? JD should be the one saying, "If you want Holland, Ellsbury plus what else? Your mentality is what cost us Darling/Terrill for Mazzilli.
I think everyone needs to get over the middle infield worth salivating over (andrus and profar) because its simply not going to happen. That dream was shot to hell when they gave kinsler the extension at the beginning of the year.
And you arent getting cargo w/o giving up AT LEAST one of perez, profar, or olt. And thats assuming you put up another decent big league pitcher (ogando, harrison, maybe ross). Colorado just has no reason to do a cargo for kinsler deal anywhere close to straight up. Really, if they do it, its to take his contract (and roster spot) off our hands so wed probably have to sweeten it more than we would w/o him.
I have no interest in either Justin or BJ Upton. I'm not convinced they are any better than who we presently have, and BJ is a head case. I would hope to see Kinsler packaged up in a trade (with a solid prospect or two) with the Rays to get a Shields, Hellickson or Moore. The Rays need hitting to compete in 2013, they have excess pitching, they will do a deal. I like Cargo, but fear he will leave Colorado's thin air and become very average. With an Ellsbury, Murphy, and either a Gentry or Martin (assuming one will be gone to the Red Sox), spelled periodically if needed in RF by Cruz (who will hopefully mostly DH), we would have a solid defensive (and fast) outfield who can hit. Are we missing some power? You bet we are, but you know, maybe its time we play a little bit more small ball anyway... this swing for the fences mentality was an obvious success this year...
switch_hitting_witch - you brought back bitter memories! That Darling/Mazzilli trade was truly one of the worst ever made by the Rangers. I was shocked even then when they made that trade!!
I am too young to remember that trade, because it was two years before I was born. Was it anything like the Chris Young and Adrian Gonzalez to the Padres trade? That one still gets my blood boiling.
We just extended holland this year with a very FO friendly contract. Why would you trade all that surplus value from a LHSP makes no sense when you have no depth at SP in the first place. Holland battled illness this year which I'm sure had a similar effect to MM playing the last half of last year with a broken wrist. Trading Holland is a mistake, if anything trade Harrison as he outperformed his expected value and would be a trade high scenario as opposed to trading extreme low with holland
Yeh, it rivaled it - The pitching poor Rangers drafted Darling #1 and I recall that Darling never actually pitched at the major league level before he was traded to the Mets for Lee Mazzilli - either in 1981 or 1982...can't quite remember. Anyway, Mazzilli had like one or two decent years for the Mets, but there was no way we needed another outfielder, so they made him DH, he sucked and they ended up trading him at the end of the year, maybe even during the year. So they traded away Ron Darling for absolutely nothing...and we know what ended up happening to Darling - a TBS broadcaster!
Send Harrison along with Kinsler to Colorado for Cargo. Harry is a groundball pitcher and might actually work well in Colorado. I'm not giving up much more than than though for Cargo....the thin air might take away a lot of the power, but he's still a good hitter and fielder. Holland is never going to be what we think he should be...never. Lets get over it...he will be brilliant for 3-4 starts and then fall into the mediocre 4 - 4.5 era he is. Yes he has a friendly contract, but he's no more than a 3 in the rotation. Move him along with Olt and Gentry to Boston for Ellsbury. Boston has to give back some prospects in that type of deal. Then you have Cargo, Ellsbury, Upton in outfield. Infield stays same with Beltre, Andrus, Profar, Moreland. We get better defensively in outfield and stay young up the middle. If Ellsbury produces then you have to determine if you shell out the money for him. Go get Greinke. Rotation of Darvish, Greinke, Ogando, Perez, Ross. Pick up a free agent inning eater.
So Kenny, you want the Rangers to trade 40% of their starting rotation Kinsler, Olt, and Gentry, for two OFs; one of whom will be here for a year. So Texas is shipping off 5 players for a few years of Cargo and one year of Elsbury. Just trying to make sure I have that correct?
Centering a deal around Holland and Justin Upton would make more sense to me, as both teams would benefit from multiple years of control. Ditto for a deal centered around Elvis and David Price - elite players with multiple years of control. I'd be hesitant to include a young player in a deal for one year of Ellsbury. Maybe the Sox would be interested in Cruz as a DH if they don't want to re-up with David Ortiz?
Both pitchers who are 1 - had prolly their career year in Harrison and 2 - never going to be more than a 3 in Holland. Sending out Kinsler gets money free to sign Andrus and go after Greinke. So ya...I'd rather have a solid 1 and 2 then just Darvish and a bunch of also rans. Ogando needs to start.....he's a least on Holland's level and might be more. Cruz has to get out of the outfield...he kills us defensively.
Every team needs number 3 pitchers Kenny. You really want two unknowns and Ogando starting over Harrison and Holland? I just don't understand the logic in this one. Cruz was better in the OF than Hamilton, so I don't know why it's so imperative he is not in the OF anymore.
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