What is your opinion of the A.J. Pierzynski signing?
MJH on accountability
Welp, if you believe I was creating a false hierarchy of fandom or anyone else for that matter then you have got me all wrong. The point I was making on loyalty was based on this teams elevated performance over the last 3-4 years. For me and me only I find it very hard to be disgusted on what I perceive to be the sentiment of Josh Hamilton. That's what were talking about here is perception. The outward display of a players performance and his ability to show the audience that he has heart or cares deeply. Do you think they owe that to you? If a player screams an expletive and throws his helmet when he k's does that mean he has passion? Personally, I don't believe that players have to be transparent or available to the media to make the fans feel better. If that's what you want, this Kevin Youkilis fake hustle BS then have at it. I would rather have a player that keeps his composure with the inward attitude of i will get you the next time.
What makes me feel better is that the Rangers are playing meaningful games beyond August. It hasn't always been the case. While I don't boo it does not mean I don't have my own level of disgust. The Lee Mazzilli "idiots" remarks, The Dave Stewart "Lucille" fiasco, the trading of Sunberg for Ned Yost, the punching of a manager, the cocaine abuse of Steve Howe in the bullpen, the Juan Gonzalez self grand standing, the bottom line stance of letting Pudge go over a $400,000 difference in pay raise, ect. I still didn't boo. Others did including my friends. To me what has more impact is to don't by the products. I hold my aggression towards teams like Philadelphia Eagles in football or White Sox or Angels or A's and last but not least the Tigers.
People booed Josh for a long season worth of valid reasons. Right or wrong it is easy to draw a conclusion that Josh an "All Star - 5 tool player" was either - pick one - distracted by something off the field, dogging it, not giving it 100%, giving the FO the finger for not "paying him" for his past performance, or whatever over most of the 162 game season. It was not for 1 playoff game, 1 botched play, or 4 shitty at bats but it was for the body of his performance over the whole season. He deserved to be booed for this season and he got it from people who spent good money to watch players who are giving their best effort at all times to try and win a game. Can anyone say in fairness that Josh came anywhere near giving his best effort over the whole season? If you paid money to sit your butt in a seat you had the right to booo. You want to be feel bad about that go ahead that is your right. I have no problem with it and that is my right. I am not a better fan than you or a worse one because of my feelings about booing Josh. I simply have a different outlook than you. So what? Josh is an adult who is paid an insane amount of money to play a game. He will cash in big this off season and believe me he does not care one bit that people booed him. The real target of the booing was the FO and Wash. I doubt they care either but we will find out soon enough.
"I'll tell you what embarrasses me: Fans who create a false hierarchy of fandom to make themselves feel superior to other fans. That is absolutely despicable. We are all here because we love this team. How dare any fan judge, scold, and shame other fans who don't express or experience that love they way he thinks they should.
You are not a better fan because you don't boo. You are not a better fan because you go to 12 games a year instead of 11. You are not a better fan because you live and die by WAR and shun RBIs. You are not a better fan because you've been following this team for 38 years instead of 37.5."
As I said earlier, I don't generally boo players even when they come up short. But I don't think that makes me a "better" fan at all. Other fans can boo if they want, and while I may disagree with them, they should have the right to. That said, I agree with you; it bugs me when I see fans acting like they're "better" fans than others.
"And now you say that when a player quits on his team and his fans (I don't need to repeat the sad saga of his season), that the fans are barred from expressing their displeasure"
Guess I missed the part where anyone advocated "barring" people from booing. You, and everyone else, certainly have the "right" to boo. Just as I have the right to say it's ugly, boorish behavior to do so. Boo your ass off, but understand that many of us are more turned off by your behavior than that of players who don't live up to your demands.
"The way this team lost WS 2011 game 6 is a microcosm of Rangers fan history. This team has always disappointed in the end. The real sin was that they actually gave us hope.False hope."
This might be the dumbest statement in this entire thread. So....you hate the fact that, for maybe the first time in 40+ years, this collection of players actually gave you hope? That's a "sin" according to you. If so, you really need to stop being a sport fan, because hope is perhaps the most valuable thing they give us. The hope of a championship is why we pay attention for 162 games. If only a championship satiates your needs, then you only need to watch during the 9th inning of a world series-clinching game (and even then there are no guarantees!). Otherwise, if the journey and "sin" of giving you false hope is such a drag to you, then seriously, do yourself a favor and find some other more constructive way to spend your time. You'll be happier.
"When a player thinks his importance is so great that he has to swing at everything in the same zip code because, "The fans don't pay to see me take a walk", he get friggin' BOOed and BOOed LUSTILY."
Using this logic when Josh was swinging at everything in April / May and banged out 20+ homers, he deserved to be "BOOed and BOOed LUSTILY." But, based on the fact there was a complete absence of boos during that time, I'm going to make a wild guess that RESULTS actually play a bigger role. I'm sure you had no problem with Hamilton swinging at everything during his MVP season or most of the last few years....but only when the results started to change did you find the need to boo.
"Booing is not despicable - its freedom of expression."
This is a typically flawed argument, setting up a false either / or choice. Yes, booing is freedom of expression....but it is also despicable when expressed simply because results didn't meet your expectations.
I think we need to ask the question in order to get a better understanding: WHAT exactly would make you "boo" personally?
It has to be different for each person. I bet alot of people here simply don't make any booing expression, and simply do alot of "Oh come on!" Or heavy eye-rolling or shaking their head at someone.
And I think that is not MUCH different than a person who lets out a boo. The same level of disgust is occurring in both types of people. One makes an audible expression, and the other makes a minimally-courteous and somewhat-private expression of disgust.
So i guess what alot of people here are saying is that when Josh Hamilton struck out on three pitches in the 8th, and completed his 0-for-4 night, 47,000 people should have just made heavy-eye rolling and disgusted grunts under their breaths so that Josh doesn't notice? Is that supposed to be better or more respectful?
I think alot of people here really have exaggerated the significance of people booing.
Now, I don't think that the booing of Joe Nathan was truly indicative of the fans' love or hate of Joe Nathan himself. I think the boos you heard was the frustrations of the fans for the overuse of a prized closer by his manager. My anger that afternoon was not directed at Nathan but at Washington. And, I booed. Lustily. From my living room as I couldn't get away for the game.
My boo was my way to vent my frustration with seeing the gleeming showpiece that was my Rangers listing and about to collapse into the sea in the manner of the Titanic. My boo was my desperate grasping of straws to hold My Team upright just long enough to get them to the finish line. My boos are my exasperations knowing the tremendous talent this team had should have propelled it to the front of the line of playoff participants and, instead, we were stumbling and bumbling our way to the finish line.
I'm also one of those fans who coddled the radio knob out in West Texas trying valiantly to keep WBAP 820 from fuzzing out again and who remembers Nelson Norman and Jeff Burroughs and Toby Harrah and even Tom Grieve in the outfield. I remember Frank Lucchasi getting popped in the eye by Lenny Randle and siding with the player because the coach didn't appear to have any more aptitude than Ron Washington in a cocaine-induced stupor.
I love my guys and, when they fell at the end because they were mismanaged, it hurt.
1) Josh Hamilton. Give him a couple of games swinging at shadows. After that, ask him what's going on? After that, put him on the DL until he sorts his ass from his face. Don't allow him to pollute your team the way he did through the entire months of June and July. Otherwise, he continues to meander through the year without direction, without dedication, without drive and without a cause to excite him.
2) Ian Kinsler. Sit him down before Spring Training ever starts. Tell him he is our 2B for now and for the future (same as the Yankees did with Derek Cheater and A-Fraud). Jurickson will, one day, kick down a door and earn his playing time. He's that good. But, you are our 2B. You were Top Three Offensively and Top Three Defensively and Top Two on the Bases at your position last year. Let's make sure you're ready to go this year. Instead: Ian plays feeling he's the step-child and not really the quality of player he really has been. He's one of the leaders of this team. In my opinion, MY even follows Ian's lead. Yeah... he does have some bit of trouble away from TBiA... but, it's never been as pronounced as it has been this year.
3) Nellie Cruz. I don't blame Nellie for the Game 6 failure last year. I blame the coaches. ESPECIALLY, if they'd discussed putting Endy out there after he had pinch hit and didn't. That tells me they KNEW they needed to be aware of how Nellie was stationed and they failed to do that. Nellie is an above-average fielder and, at times, makes some amazing running catches. He doesn't always get the best read but I'd certainly take him over Greg Luzinski, Manny being Manny and a number of other fielders you could name.
4) Michael Young. Hmmmm. I still would have played Michael and I'm am a proponent of his playing next year - just far more time at DH or 2B and zero at 3B/SS. Minimal exposure at 1B is ok, too. I think his bat will come back as his legs come back and he will be the 2013 Comeback Player of the Year. But, he definitely needed to have been told "no" more often when he asked for time in the field. I don't think Wash is capable of doing that, though.
5) Mike Napoli. Love the guy. Love his zest for the game and I love his raw power. This year, though, I think he was still trying to get over that terrible ankle injury he suffered in the previous World Series. Once he gets both mentally and physically over that, I think he'll be worth keeping. I hope we do.
6) Mitch Moreland. Draws me back to the Oakland A's. The A's - and the Orioles - have the ability to get behind young players and inflate their attitudes and highlight their abilities where the Rangers appear to deflate the young guys. Again, I ask how many 1B are we going to have to go through before we realize it isn't the players that can't produce but the team that can't help them achieve that production.
Bottom Line: When Joe Nathan imploded on the mound, my boos were not directed at Joe Nathan. They were directed at the environment in which he participated that was letting him down and not protecting him so he could be his best. When Josh Hamilton flailed for two solid months? No boos. But, when Josh failed as the rest of the team was failing and we were about to be punted because our guys had lost their drive, we booed. Not because we "hated Josh Hamilton", but because we were frustrated - because we KNEW in our hearts we were dying and there was no hope of resuscitating our team or our hopes. So, we booed.
And, Josh didn't help the situation when he opened his stupid mouth.
For those reasons I understand your frustration. Here is where I differ from you. I have had a chance to see a game every ML park. I started this when I graduated from H.S. in '83. Out of those ballparks and fan base you really have to tip your hat to Yankee fans. They are arrogant and can be nasty at times but they love the laundry as well as the players in them. As much as they loved Billy they would never demand they get rid of Reggie. Why? 3 swings on 3 pitches. They aren't ready to ride ARod out of town because he is 100 dingers away from having a Yankee atop the Home Run champion list. They will stay with Jeter even if he wants to play until he is 44 or 45 because he is 952 hits away from Pete Rose. But even more than that are the 27 Championships, 40 Pennants and 51 W.S. appearances.
There is a small faction of very loyal Rangers fans. These are the fans that live in every moment. Newberg would be one of those guys. It's an unconditional love or man crush if you will. You then have a faction of fans that follow, a much larger number, that places conditions on the performance and attitudes of the players. You then have the fans who do all the fantasy bullshit and are convinced they have a better idea of what should be done to improve the team because they are stat-heads. You then have all the chicks and kids.
Everyone is entitled to do what they want. You can boo or not. I have adopted a philosophy that I have passed on to my kid and my nephews. If you hit one out, score a goal or touchdown, act like you've been there before. It tells your opponent, you can't stop me I will do this all day. I also tell them, never let a loss be bigger than your opponents win.
One thing about Josh, with all his talent he is still only a 6th year player. As a ball player he is still growing. I would have liked to see him this season with a real hitting coach.
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