What is your opinion of the A.J. Pierzynski signing?
MJH on accountability
I read on here alot about trading Elvis and picking up something big and I/we think he is worth a "Price, Upton" type piece to fill the void of Josh's leaving. But if I'm a GM on another team why would I want Elvis? He only has 2 yrs and he has Boris "the anit-christ" as an Agent who will want and get MAX money. So if I'm a GM why would I get rid of Price or Upton for 2 yrs of Elvis? and If I'm the Yankees or Boston or LA Dodgers if I wait 2 yrs I can out bid the other guy and get him then with out giving anything up. If I'm Tampas or Arizonas GM I want Profar not Elvis and if I'm in a medium to small market Elvis is a non-starter. Honestly I think the conversation goes something like this
JD; How do you feel about trading "X" I've got a Great SS that we might be able to hook you up withGM; Elvis huh? will he sign and extention?JD; I don't know I guess we could talk to his agent about itGM; it's Boris rightJD; yesGM; pass what else you got?
I truely believe the only way your getting anything out of Elvis is to play him for 2 more yrs and then pay him the big bucks he's going to want. ORFind a sucker at the trade deadline willing to give up the farm to get a chance at the playoffs.But then why do you think any GM would do the deal? please convince me
Elvis is the problem...
SAID NO ONE EVER
Fletch you might want to read the thread before you reply!
You have to realize though, he is a premium SS at a position that is hard to find premium talent at. Teams will gladly take just two year of him with the potential to re-sign him after those two years. He is at a premium position, a position that team will gladly pay for. Elvis would be a huge piece for multiple teams, and in my opinion a lot of people on this board have been under valuing him. If JD wanted to trade Elivs i believe he would be able to...easily, and get what he wants for him.
Borras Boris what ever TY for the help though.
I think you might be over valuing him. If Elvis is the last piece of a playoff bound team sure you take 2 yrs of Elvis and try and resign him, but there aren't many team like that out there and the teams that are in that position aren't going to give up a player it would take to get him. Elvis is a 23 yr old Allstar SS are there teams that would want him? DAMN RIGHT THERE ARE! Are there teams out there that will pay for him? That list gets a lot shorter.
A team might not be interested in extending him. 2 years of All SS play is valuable
Upton has just 3 more years of control and Price 2 or 3. What I like about these ideas is that Ari isn't going to be able to extend Elvis or Upton and TB isn't going to be able to extend Price or Elvis. We on the other hand, could probably extend any one of the 3. However, with the presence of Profar, extending Elvis at huge dollars makes little sense. Extending either of the other 2 does. These other teams could be trading a short term asset for another short term asset, a prospect, and some salary relief for a cash strapped club. We would be dealing a short term asset for a long term asset.
To me, the conversation goes more like this:
JD; What would it take to get "X"?GM; What about Profar and Olt/Perez (+ 2 prospects). JD; Well, we arent willing to talk about profar. What about elvis instead?GM; Hes only guaranteed for what? 2 years?JD; yes. But we would still throw in either Olt or Perez + 3 lower level prospects.
Point is, a straight up trade isnt going to pry Upton/Price/Heyward/Stanton/Bruce away from any of those clubs. But, you could center a deal around him with other pieces added to it.
While I think you're clearly right on Price/Heyward/Stanton, I'm not sure about Upton. The Dbacks seem to like some of their other young OFs, and really do seem to be ready to move him. What's better for a club trying to compete with the LAD on an ~$80m budget, 3 years of Upton for $38m or 2 years of Elvis for $12m? Especially given a huge hole at SS in Arz, and able replacements in the OF? I'm sure it would take a couple of additional prospects, but nothing on the Perez/Olt level.
His name is "Boras".
I agree the price on upton is probably less than the price for the other names getting thrown around (especially considering the unspectacular year upton had). You may be able to get him w/o olt or perez being included, but i'm sure they will initially ask for one of them. My point was more that it wasnt just going to be elvis for anyone straight up. its 2 years of elvis + other prospects (of various quality depending on the return) and the conversation probably wont start with elvis, itll start with profar with the rangers balking at profar but being open to elvis.
It's all about what you need. If a GM needs a SS but has a surplus of pitching or outfielders, why not trade away a surplus to fill a gap?
If you want to look at contracts, if Tampa traded Elvis for Price, it doesn't matter if there's an extension or not, because TB wouldn't resign Elvis or Price in the first place. If they're both going to walk after their contracts are over, it allows them to put the best team as possible on the field during that duration.
Elvis' contract is very team friendly, 4.8M and 6.4M. Price is up for arbitration... Want to guess what his salary will be? TB trading Price for Elvis would most likely save money. SS is a premium position and good ones are hard to find. You get all-star talent at SS for two years at a cheap price, every team would want that. In turn, the Rangers would get a southpaw ace that would shore up the rotation with Darvish.
If JD wanted to trade Elvis, teams would line up.
Every player has a limitation of available years....and that's both a good and a bad thing for some GMs..
Some GMs don't want big long-term contracts. Some GMs envision a player they have in the minors being ready in 2-3 years.
There will be PLENTY of interest in Elvis.
Yes. And as we all know, JD probably has plan A, B, C, and D. Is trading elvis plan A? maybe not. But its definitely an option. And no team says they are shopping a player because they dont want to create a rift between the player and the organization if a trade doesnt go through. Not to mention they dont want to lower his trade value by stating he's available.
Elvis a problem-Wow--who knew??
How about Young for manager?
I don't see how Heyward and Stanton are even remotely available. But Jay Bruce is interesting... Cincy is already a contender but Andrus for two years is a sizable upgrade over Zack Cozart. If we included Murphy or Cruz (plus a prospect) wouldn't they have to consider it?
I agree completely. You aren't going to get a big bat for Elvis unless you throw in AT LEAST a top prospect like Olt, and that is not going to happen.
I agree with Joe C., all this Elvis for a Hambone replacement is a load of horse poop.
If Hamilton will take some responsibility for his mess ups this year maybe they ought to resign him as long as they can get him for a reasonable price.
My nightmare scenario includes keeping MY and not resigning Josh, the team would sort of be out of contention except for maybe a play in game.
Honestly, when I look at next year the only thing I am optimistic about is starting pitching, but then again I do not know when Colby and Neftali will be back from their big injuries.
If Wash doesn't take responsibility for his mistakes they should start over with a new manager. The formula needed to be changed. In baseball you can't stick to your guns like that when they aren't firing. You need to infuse youth, change the equation, search for a way to stay competitive. All I can think of is how Wash kept saying "we aren't experimenting with player development." Were the Orioles developing players with Muchado, the Angels with Trout, the A's with their entire pitching core? Yes, and that is what made them competitive when they weren't going to be otherwise. If you sit on what has worked in baseball you get slammed by the tide of change. What HAS been does not win ball games in the now.
A lot of change is necessary. Guys either need to take responsibility and change their philosophy accordingly or move on. Otherwise, this will be the beginning of three mediocre seasons at the end of which Wash gets fired and another rebuilding era begins. In baseball, rebuilding never stops, it is constant. Being stubborn makes you a loser.
In baseball you can't stick to your guns like that when they aren't firing. You need to infuse youth, change the equation, search for a way to stay competitive. All I can think of is how Wash kept saying "we aren't experimenting with player development." Were the Orioles developing players with Muchado, the Angels with Trout, the A's with their entire pitching core? Yes, and that is what made them competitive when they weren't going to be otherwise. If you sit on what has worked in baseball you get slammed by the tide of change. What HAS been does not win ball games in the now.
The difference is, the Angels and Orioles added Trout and Machado is be (and stay) competitive. The Rangers didn't have to, because they were the best team in the AL, and arguably all of baseball for that matter, for most of the entire season. By the time the Rangers started faltering down the stretch, the last two weeks, there was really nothing left to be done.
What should have happened would have been to play Gentry, Olt and Profar more when the Rangers still held leads of 5+ games. By the time the end of the season came, Ron Washington had in his back pocket the excuse of "Well, we have the best record in the league, why change?" And I can't fault him for that logic. It's only in retrospect, now that the Rangers aren't even involved in the ALDS, that us as fans carry a gripe.
I know some of you can look back at July and August and say you've been calling Wash an idiot for longer than just the last two weeks, but the argument didn't hold as much weight when the team was winning. The logic was either dumb or subjective (and probably both), even if it's correct in hindsight. If the means don't justify the end, then I can't give you any high fives. I'm sorry.
Oh, and Josh Hamilton isn't coming back. Odds are 50/50 at best that Elvis returns.
My biggest fear is that if they do trade Elvis (and I don't believe that will happen this year), then who backs up Kinsler and Profar? I just picture Wash having a whole new avenue of plugging in MY to a variety of infield positions (rather than DH.)
You would think that if we keep Kinsler, Andrus, and Profar, that there is no reason to keep MY.
'Young for Manager' is an amusing comment that struck a chord. I lived in Cincinnati when Rose returned as manager. (Rose is comparable to Young only ON THE FIELD!) Rose actually hit okay for average, but it was an aging elder stateman's ability to find holes with well-aimed ground balls, No extra bases, not even the ability to drive in runners from second - just clever rollers for one base at a time. Outfield depths for Rose were the ones they use when pitchers bat. I enjoyed the hard-hit Young balls late this season, but, much of the season, Young was an unpleasant echo of the 'occasional harmless ground ball single' of the late Rose career.
JD needs to convince Boras it is in his clients best interest to sign a long extension at a really good price for him and the Rangers. Elvis is an elite SS and will be for alot of years. Tell Boras absent the extension the Rangers deal him thus taking one more big bidder out of the bidding war Boras is going to try to incite when Elvis reaches FA in three years. Does Elvis need to be the new face of the franchise long term? Probably.
Baseball Cots indicates 2013 is an option year for Kinsler, he is the odd man out up the middle. Regardless we keep Elvis for two more years, don't trade him for anything less than a #1 or 2 or a 40 HRs a year player. Elvis is in his prime get a prime return or play him everyday for the next two years.
I think the people saying ti will take Elvis AND an Olt/Perez type prospect are kinda crazy...I believe JD could make a trade using just Profar and a few other prospects to get a big name bat. I know Profar has more potential, but at this point I still believe Elvis is more valuable. He is a 23 year old All Star SS at a premium position. Like stated earlier, if the Diamond Backs or the Rays had the choice between 2 years of Price/Upton or Andrus..they take Andrus as they need a SS. Now I'm not saying it would be a straight up trade, it would definitely take something else to pry them of their young stars. It won't take anything monumental though. My best bet would be Andrus, another top 10 prospect( not in the top 5) and a lower teir prospect.
"Baseball Cots indicates 2013 is an option year for Kinsler"
This was true until he signed his extension.
Elvis isn't the problem, but he can be part of the retooling solution.
The Rangers resigned Kinsler because I bet that Elvis wasn't interested in resigning and they have a stud SS prospect in the minors.
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