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MJH on accountability
If I hear the MLB Channel guys gloat over Jorge Posada any more and hear them claim he is a Hall of Famer? I won't ever take them seriously again. Michael is younger and has done more, yet most think he is not a HOF'r, but Posada is? Why? Because of stripes? The HOF needs to remove writers deciding it. Even Nolan was not a unaniimous vote in. How the hell does that happen? Jorge Posada is no HOF'r. Nice player? Yes. But he has many ahead of him in my book.
Seriously? If Jorge Posada is a HOFer, then we have like 10 HOFers on our team already, and most of them aren't even 30.
And I'm pretty sure no one was ever unanimous. Even guys like Nolan who were almost completely unanimous, I think some writers deliberately left him off, knowing enough would vote for him, because they didn't want it to be unanimous, which seems really dumb to me.
Hall-of-famers on the Yankees? Jeter. Hard to argue with him. A-Rod? Possibly. He's done a lot. He definitely isn't the player he was 10 years ago, roids or no roids. But he's probably done enough to get him in, if a ton of the guys don't exclude him based on PEDs. Other possibles: CC, Tex, Cano, and Granderson might be good enough that they might, eventually, have the pedigree. But Jorge? Batted over .300 once. 1664 hits to date, 275 HRs, 20 SB. That's right, 20 in his career; he was caught stealing 21 times. Career BA of .273. Most HRs in a year? 30. Never 200 hits in a year and only a few times was he near or above 100 RBIs.
If he's worth of the HOF, Beltre and Young should be too...based solely on their performance to date, and they should both have quite a few years left; both could feasibly hit 3000 hits or something like that.
you guys do realize he was a catcher, and position does matter?
Andy is right, there's never been a unanimous HOF'er. I think there's some secret agreement between the writers to make sure no one was unanimous. Ripken Jr., Mays, Aaron...and no unanimous selection? Amazing.
Jeter is as sure a selection as there is. A-Rod, I'm thinking he may get caught in the unofficial steroids ban, along with McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Palmeiro, and others. But, despite the fact he was a Yankee and won 5 titles, I just can't see Posada getting in. Ever. And unfortunately for Young and Beltre, I tend to believe that just getting 3000 hits is not going to be enough to gather the necessary votes for them to get in, at least not without a WS title and maybe an MVP award. 3000 hits and 500 HR's are no longer the guarantees they once were.
A-Rod, I'm thinking he may get caught in the unofficial steroids ban, along with McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Palmeiro, and others.
Don't forget the guys who will be penalized due to the "faults" of their peers and will face an uphill battle in reaching the necessary 75 percent despite a lack of hard evidence tying them to PED use.
And that's a shame. More than a few with no ties to PED's whatsoever will be be punished for the "faults" of their peers and the fact they played the majority of their career (or had increased production) between 1994-2005. Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, Craig Biggio, maybe Chipper Jones, probably Beltre, along with many others.
The steroids question is so subjective. Thome will get in, I think, without much complaint because there is a perception that he's a good dude and he never had that roid "look". Whereas Jeff Bagwell, who is more deserving than Thome (both are fully deserving, absent the steroid question, but Bagwell more so), will always have trouble because he was thin and then got that muscled up steroid "look". Also, he played on the same team as Ken Caminetti. This despite the fact that there is no more evidence against Baggy than there is against Thome.
I live in the NY area and the concensus here is that at best Jorge is a border-line candidate. He's helped by the 5 rings and the fact he's a catcher, but he was never considered to be the best at his position in the American League, nor was he ever the best player on his team. Never a great catcher defensively, he got much worse with each passing year, so much so the Yankees didn't want him even though their other catchers sustained injuries.
A good player who was helped by cast around him. If he didn't play in NY I doubt he'd get a lot of support for the Hall.
@YP: Yes, defense does matter...but consider this: I know that Gold Gloves are often handed out to undeserving people, but I'd think that, in 16 years, especially given he was a Yankee all of them, if he were spectacular on defense, they'd have tossed at least one his way. Now, he did win the Silver Slugger 5 times...but nevertheless, why should being a catcher allow him admittance to the HOF with offensive stats that wouldn't get anyone else in? Most guys in the HOF were good defenders with excellent offensive stats. You think Willie Mays would have gotten in if he'd had Posada's offense line? I'm skeptical...
@Alan: The only player that has 3000 hits that has been eligible for the HOF but not gotten in yet is Rafael Palmeiro. He may or may not get in, possibly due to his association with PEDs. Everyone else has gotten in, and the other ones that haven't are Jeter and Biggio. Jeter is an almost-certainty, and Biggio will certainly be a contender.
@andy, it's not just about stats, it's about stats relative to other players at your position. As an offensive catcher, Posada was incredibly good. He's not necessarily a shoe in but his production out of a generally offensively scarce position combined with his championships bodes well for him. It's not about just your numbers but rather, your numbers relative to your position. No one expects a 2b to hit 500 homers for his career to get in.
The dude on Clubhouse Confidential was the one I heard say Posada was a HOFer simply because of his OBP.
Incidentally, that show cracks me up b/c the host is like the embodiment of all the bad stereotypes that Sabrmetrics biggest opponents would use to characterize the advanced stats crowd. Most folks here concede that there has to be room for intangibles and scouting to go along with advanced stats, but this guy is all WAR and OBP, all the time and has no interest in anything that's not decided by advanced stats. He seems perplexed when he interviews GMs and they tell him that advanced stats is only part of how they run the club, he argues with his fellow MLB Network hosts who have actually played the game about how the pressure of being in different situations in a game affects how the player approaches that situation, and the promos for the show are hilariously over-serious. Not to mention the whole show is run on speed pills or something. He spends like 10 seconds on each segment, usually spent determining important things like whether Willie Mays won enough MVPs based on WAR, and the people he talks to on the show get like 5 seconds for their segment. In one episode he was talking to either Tom Verducci or Ken Rosenthal, who actually had to come running onto the screen as the host was talking to him, and was done with his segment about 2 seconds after he finally made it on the screen.
@YP: So because he's a catcher, he shouldn't be held to the same standard offensively as outfielders, just because outfielders are power hitters more often than catchers? Gotcha.
actually, Andy, that is correct.....
Jorge is NOT a hall of famer. This is ridiculous.
Yes, YP you are correct. Catchers are historically worse on offense, and you need to take that into account.
That being said, I'm still not sold on him.
The sure mention of this atrocity on any sort of publication, news/sports cast or radio show, and not just some dumb@$$ like me's opinion on a Yankees fanboard just shows the ridiculous east coast bias in sports, and worse the favoring of a "sacred and historical" franchise over others. This kind of asinine BS puts a shame to the seriousness that is the baseball HOF. if Jorge remotely gets a vote to get in, you might as well make it similar to the basketball hall of fame where pretty much anyone and everyone gets in as long as you just wait long enough.
I'll admit Jorge's had his moments, and he's had a history of burning the Rangers at times. But he's about as HOF caliber as John Rocker in my opinion.
GD yankee bias! Keep the HOF esteemed not a f***ing joke
Pitchers are considered for the HOF based on their defensive abilities, not offensive. If catchers generally perform less offensively than most other positions, then they should be held to a higher standard on defense. Everyone knows being a catcher is very difficult, hence the reason many don't play every day. So that's understandable. But if you're going to tell me a catcher should get in with an offensive line like Jorge Posada's, he better have great defense. He doesn't have to be Johnny Bench, but he probably should be close to Yadier, or at least Napoli (this season, anyway). Was Jorge that good behind the plate?
Don't get me started on Yankee players and the gloating over each of them as if they are all god like creatures. Posada? He's not a Hall of Famer. Sorry Yankees fans. He's not, but the press can't see the reality through the pinstripes.
I'm not even saying he his a HoFer, but it's not so far out of the realm of possibility as some posters make it seem.
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