What is your opinion of the A.J. Pierzynski signing?
MJH on accountability
ESPN is reporting that several players have witnessed a man in the outfield bleachers, who is relaying signs to Jays hitters in Rogers Center. The article has a bunch of statistical data to back up the claim as well. The article is an interesting read. You can read it here: http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6837424/baseball-toronto-blue-jays-suspicion-again-stealing-signs-rogers-centre%27%20rel=%27nofollow
If true, maybe that explains some of our struggles there? Of course it would be our luck that this story would break 2 days before the Angels have to visit Toronto
interesting, however i doubt it has anything to do with our struggles, there. first we alwayst struggle on astro turf, the trop, the metrodome(at the time) and in toronto. even worse for wear this year we struggle against pansy slow off speed pitching that toronto seems to have plenty of. but it defiinately wouldnt help our cause if true.
OK, here's the deal about stealing signs and how its a whole lot about nothing.Anyone who's ever played or coached the game understands there's going to be times when signs are stolen. It's as much a part of the game as scuffing baseballs and pitchers throwing inside.Earlier in this year, Yorvit Torrealba suspected some team (I can't recall which one) was stealing the Rangers' signs. He had a conniption, yelled and fumed.Wise ol' Steve Busby was the voice of reason. He said the way to stop sign stealing is to change them and if a batter thinks a curve is coming but it's a fastball near his chin instead, it won't happen again.The same applies for some guy in the stands at the Rogers Centre. Call them in a different sequence, change them each inning or use decoys.Once in one of my select team's games our signs were getting picked off. I simply had another coach stand near me and relay another set of signs to the catcher while I went through mine. Problem solved.On the other hand, even if a hitter knows what's coming he still has to execute. I'm positive that if Bob Gibson yelled from the mound that he was about to unleash that nasty slider of his, nine of 10 wouldn't be able to hit it anyway.The Rangers have sucked so badly for so long in Toronto its highly unlikely sign stealing is the answer. And they are getting picked off, RWash has enough baseball sense to simply switch them.
Great point no.42 but i have played highschool baseball since freshmen year and i am know a senior and when teams are stealing signs it is always when player are on base we would change our signs if we found out and that fixed because its not like they had tape on our alternate signs to study so problem solved but the blue jays have a guy in the outfield who is stealing signs and he problay knows all of there signs even when they change them up because he studys tape so it gives them a huge advantage how can you explain a huge spike in the blue jays offensive numbers expecially bautistas he knows whats coming so he can start his swing early and knows what pitch is coming and were it will be.......??
No. 42, I think everyone recognizes that players stealing signs is a part of the game. Thats not a big deal. What makes this a big deal is that the Jays possibly have an employee planted in the stands who is relaying signs. The plot may run even deeper than that as some of the players in the article believed that the Jays' plant was receiving his info from somebody else, possibly in the press box watching on TV.
Holy run-on sentence MrRainMan. Take a breath sir.
If you read the article No.42 you'll see that Easter division teams have pretty much come to the conclusions Toronto is stealing signs even when men aren't on base. They've adapted by flashing multiple signs even with the bases empty, and I'm guessing that pretty much solves the problem.
I think the issue raises peoples hackles b/c using people / technology outside the field of play is generally considered cheating. Stealing signs from a runner on second base is generally not considered cheating.
The stats on Toronto's home performance are eye-opening. I'm just guessing all teams will just copy the Yankees and others who flash multiple signs throughout the game.
BTW...that's one of the best reads I've seen in ESPN in a long time. It was actual journalism; which is in short supply from that organization.
Highly fascinating article and I thought pretty fairly done. Something is going on that needs explanation. I wonder if someone had time to look at splits for RBIA and see if teams feature the same boost in run production vs run production at home when playing the Rangers (since the Rangers pitchers have been pretty good this year). When I first heard the Yankees were accusing the Jays of steeling signs I was highly skeptical but now not so much.Also in the article comments there is a link to a blog that has a fairly reasonable response from some Jays fan site.
Very interesting article. I remember reading when Giradi had made the accusations about the Blue Jays earlier this year. But to hear it has been possibly going on since last year?
I wonder now that all of the teams are wary, what has been the effect on the home homerun split between the Blue Jays and vistors?
Seriously, the way people get all worked up about stealing signs, the batter looking at where the catcher sets up, etc. is ridiculous, and its no excuse for playing bad baseball.
@RangersBu87: I understand your point, but whether the Blue Jays hired someone and planted him in the stands, or used someone else in the organization, or used players, or a combination of all of the above, they are all employees of the Blue Jays. An employee planted in the stands is no different than an "employee'' standing at second base.After reading the article, my stance is the same: If a team's signs are getting stolen, change them and the "guy in white'' will look like an idiot when one of the Toronto players takes a fastball on the ass when he thought a curve ball was coming.And this brings up another question: What did the "guy in white'' do when the Yankees went to multiple signs so he didn't know what to relay to the batter? Did he shrug his shoulders? Did he throw his hands up in the air?I'm not saying there's no validity to this because it sounds goofy enough to be true.What I am saying is that if a team knows its getting its signs picked off and doesn't change them, they are just as dumb as the team stealing the signs.
I wonder if stealing signs explains our huge home away splits. I think Buerlhe used to accuse us of it.
i guess nobody understands that if somebody studys another teams pitchers and catchers signs they will know all of them even when they change the signs. And i guess nobody noticed how many more homeruns the bluejays hit at home compared to other teams that play there???
DId you actually check the splits or are you just making baseless comments?
i actually was watching outside the lines today and they were talking about the huge diffrence in homeruns for the bluejays compared to there opponets at there home park and they also have huge home road differintial in OPS. So plese dont question me i am not someone who throws random stuff out there. Here is part of the artical about it... Now, by themselves, the above splits aren'tconclusive, so to measure the effect of RogersCentre more precisely, The Mag consulted withWyers. He has developed a method thatgenerates park factors by comparing a player'sperformance in any given park with hisperformance in all other parks, not just in roadgames for that player. This reduces statisticalnoise and offers a better estimate of how a parkactually plays in a given season. Wyers foundthat for every ball that batters made contactwith in 2010, Rogers added .011 home runs, upfrom a rate of just .002 from 2005 to 2009.That puts Rogers Centre in 2010 among the top3 percent of home run ballparks since 1950.But only the Blue Jays, and not their opponents,got a home run boost in Toronto. When the Jayswere on the road in 2010, they hit home runs in4 percent of plate appearances in which theymade contact, compared with an AL average of3.6 percent. At Rogers, their home run oncontact rate soared to 5.4 percent, which is ahome-field advantage seven times the magnitudeteams typically enjoy.Opposing batters, however, actually homered oncontact at a below-average rate in Toronto. Asa result, the power differential between homeand visiting hitters at Rogers in 2010 was thethird largest of any park in any season over thepast 60 years. Here anybody who wants to check out full artical it is mind boggeling how some team could cheat and still suck.. espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6837424/baseball-toronto-blue-jays-suspicion-again-stealing-signs-rogers-centre
we're all just happy you used punctuation this time....... :) ha!
Good one DC!
I may be wrong, but weren't the Yankees accused of stealing signs earlier this year? I seem to remember a guy in the stands around the home plate area wearing a headset flashing signs to the hitters.
Yeah thats the situation YT got so hot over. its part of the game. at least nobody's a-roding it anymore. remember he admitted to giving signals to player so inturn they'd do the same, upping his HR total? was like last year or the year before that, that news came out. i swear. i really used to respect arod. i left the team amicably. busted his ass 24/7 for the rangers when he played for us. Hell he even didnt make a big deal of the debt hicks sports group still owed him. but he's just become (or maybe always been, i just dont remember him being this way in seattle) this shady character willing to do whatever it takes to be on top of the record books. thats all he cares about. Bonds cared about being number 1 in the books, but he cared even more about shoving it in the face of the media. A-rod's at a different level. He's like the sterotypical Havard Dbag you see in movies willing to do whatever it takes to be top of the class. its damn shame cuz he's one hell of a player. If he'd just realize that and play for the love of the game he might seem like a damn happier person.
@daggie06 Actually the debt the Rangers still owe to A Rod is part of his initial contract and part of some non qualified deferred compensation package that A Rod's agent negotiated into his deal. This is done for various tax benefits for both the highly compensated employee and the business. I think in your line of work you probably deal with these. Also there are several players that have these types of agreements with the Rangers and A Rod was the only one that had an attorney present at the BK proceedings. He even had an attorney present when during the auction to make sure that A Rod's trust would not be broken up to pay creditors.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonqualified_deferred_compensation
I think you misunderstood what i said, i know he was involved in the situation my point was he for the most part stayed out of it, and wasnt a huge DB about the whole thing. He coulda brought up the fact they owed him money and all this stuff just to cause further distractions in the process for the rangers, but he pretty much stayed quiet and when ever questioned just told the media to speak to his atty. He coudlve handled it so much worse in my opinion, but its just that, an opinion.
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