What is your opinion of the A.J. Pierzynski signing?
MJH on accountability
Please explain why Kinsler is everyone's favorite. He hits .230 and hits more popups than I want to remember. If he is all that great-trade him w/ a pospect for TORP. Everyone says he is having a 'great' year. To me he just average at best.
Are you new to this site? Just asking because this has been a debate here since the beginning of the season. One side claims that Kinsler is having a good season and uses statistics like WAR to verify their argument and use BABIP and flyball% to illustrate just how unlucky he's been this season. The other side claims what you just claimed and say his BA is terrible and hits too many popups and has poor body language. I wouldn't put myself into either camp, though I will say that Kinsler is one of my favorite Rangers. He hits a lot of popups, but he also brings a lot of other stuff to the table. I'm glad he's our second baseman, as there are very few who are better. Plus I like his attitude. He's not a robot. He's a person who seems to care very deeply about what he does and sometimes lets his emotions get away from him momentarily, though I've never seen/heard him do anything totally objectionable. I don't know enough about statistics to counter any argument that he's having a bad year. I know that obviously BA has a lot of factors in it outside of the batter's control, and I don't know how WAR is calculated and BABIP would have many of those factors outside of the batter's control used in it as well, and I don't know if flyball% takes into account infield flies and the many variations of "flyballs", so I won't get into a statistical debate with anyone trying to prove the value of Kinsler. I will just say I like Kinsler and run on sentences.
FAN, it's the advanced stats that people look at when judging Kinsler's value. I believe his WAR places him in the top 5 of the league, and in the MVP race in some pundits minds. Gold glove caliber 2nd baseman, who undoubtedly has flaws, but still is one of the more productive players on this team.
"I believe his WAR places him in the top 5 of the league, and in the MVP race in some pundits minds"
That's a good one! Ha ha ha ha ha.
Can I ask the Ian haters out there why they think pop-up rate is an important stat? I've never heard anybody cite that stat before, now all of a sudden with this one player, its all some people want to talk about. He doesn't even pop out as much as he his perceived to, he doesn't lead the team or anything, but that's not even the point. I mean, do you ever hear : "yeah So-and-So has HOF numnbers, but you ever look at his pop-up rate? He doesn't belong." Or, "We don't want a long term deal with this free agent. He pops out too much." Its laughable.
Yeah-he's very productive. Hitting 230. 30 something RBIS. Yeah he's a great 2B. MVP for Ian--that is LAUGHABLE. Not even in the Top 50. GEEEZ--Gold Glove-are you serious?
By the way, my comment was a response to the laughable assertion that Ian Kinsler is going to be considered as an MVP candidate in 2011. That's really funny. Mike Napoli is more of an MVP candidate than Ian Kinsler is! But all that aside, I'm not a Kinsler hater, and I do think if you look at the broad picture, he's got great power for a 2B, has good speed, very good baserunning instincts, has good range at 2B, and has a good eye for walks. On the downside, he doesn't hit for a great average, is very streaky both hot and cold, and sometimes makes dumb errors in the field. Many will also point out his tendency to miss a month or two every season with an injury. If you put all that together, mix it up, this is what comes out: a very good overall player that most teams would love to have at 2B. He might just win the MVP one year - but it isn't going to be this one.
Regarding the popups... he does pop up enough for people to notice. People also notice his comically exaggerated uppercut swing. But it's the same swing that give you 15-25 homers a season, so I guess you take the good with the bad.
Fantasy baseball has ruined real baseball for many fans. They expect gaudy numbers across the board, or else they want to dump a guy. Look around the league at what other teams are rolling out there at 2B, and you'll be very happy to have Mr. Kinsler on your team.
fan you didn't answer my questoin. Why do you think pop-out rate is an important statistic?
The problem is Kinsler haters focus on one stat, Batting Average, and makeup another, pop-up ratio, so they can use Ian as a scapegoat for every Ranger loss. Is his BA, average? Yes. However, he has a good OBP, the highest WAR on the team (4.5), good baserunning skills, and elite defense, possibly even gold glove caliber. You want proof of the latter? Watch the game today. Ian maybe mediocre with the bat this year but his defense has been phenomenal. Add all the numbers together, and this is why sites, such as Fan Graph rank Ian as a Top 5 Second Baseman, despite his streakiness with the bat. When Ian is hot, the team is hot. In their long winning streak, he was on fire and had a 4 hit game. Furthermore, his overall numbers (OBP, WAR, BABIP, range and defense, etc) have been so good that many Ranger beat and blog writers (minus Evan Grant) considered him the Rangers 1st half MVP. Honestly, if you're a Kinsler hater, this statistical evidence will mean squat to you. You'll continue to say he doesn't hustle, popups, plays no D, and has no value to the team. Thus I agree with Adam. Sigh.
I agree Skeletor, people just put so much focus on a batting average that they miss other key value points that a player brings to the table.
Hugh, i wasnt saying that i thought kinsler was an MVP candidate, just that i have heard many bloggers and baseball people say or write that he could finish in the top 10 in the MVP race.
Not a hater. Just saying WAR means nothing.. The guy is NOT clutch. Hits .230. Driving in 32 runs. And let's be hones-average defense. And he DOES lead the team in popup outs. If he is as good as you say-trade him for Lincecum. Rob Cano will get 10 times the votes for MVP.
"so they can use Ian as a scapegoat for every Ranger loss"
- I thought Ron Washington was the scapegoat for every Ranger loss?
"i have heard many bloggers and baseball people say or write that he could finish in the top 10 in the MVP race"
... since it's "MANY" - I want names, please. I call bullkrap on this one. No reputable media person would say that Kinsler deserves MVP for 2011 performance.
evan grant, richard durrett, joel lemire, ken rosenthal, paul morosi
WAR means nothing. Average defense.
You are clearly an expert and I will not argue your astute observations.
Ok Trey, so you are right. I concede. I am an idiot!
Got any links to real stories? I searched around for anything linking Ken Rosenthal, Ian Kinsler, and the word "MVP" and I got nothin. Same goes for Durrett. Don't care what Evan Grant thinks, but even there I don't think the beefy one really said that. I think you're overstating your case in a huge way. Either that, or you have amnesia and you have forgotten what year it is.
And I didn't post the last one where I said I was an idiot. Obviously Trey is a child who likes to make up shit and then when people call him on it, he retreats into krap like that. Nice one dude.
1) He's not hitting .230. He's hitting .239 in a year when the ML average is barely above .250. Still not very good, but...
2) He makes up for that BA with a monster walk rate. He has a .344 OBP. That trails only Napoli, Young, Hamilton, and Gentry (small sample size) on the Rangers' roster. It's also well above the ML average which is hovering around .320 for the season. And...
3) He's also slugging .470, well above the ML average which is down around .390 for the year. Giving him an OPS of .814, way, way, way above the ML average which is down around .715 for the year. On top of that...
4) You get this from a premium position player. If a SS, 2B, 3B, C, or CF is OPSing about 100 points better thatn the ML average, that's a terriffic player if he plays even average defense at his position. But...
5) Ian doesn't play average 2B defense. He plays way above average bordering on great defense.
So that's why he's a great player.
Still, I would trade him + a top prospect or 2 for a TORP, but as we have noted, teams don't trade TORPs, pretty much ever, unless they have 2.5 months left under contract and their team is not contending (see Lee, Cliff 2010).
The dude abides
Real baseball people ( not saying I am one of them) notice, for example, that he does not even consider hitting the ball to the right side when called upon. He is always thinking pull. Is it because he is that selfish a player or undisciplined? Does the ADD effect his decision making or is it poor coaching? Whatever it is, his college competition Dustin P. in Arizona got it and he doesn't. I don't think he is a selfish player but I personally think he lacks intelligences. I think he dearly loves this team and his teammates but needs enlightening.
DaveMoatesFan--you clearly get it. We need more of you and less of nerds like Adam & scobby dud. Kins is probly 6th best 2nd basemen in AL. We could do better. Clutch he is NOT!
I'm sorry Ian Kinsler isn't a quality player. My problem with Ian is he has poor pitch selection and when he does swing at a belt high pitch he pops it up and not with authority but a true pop up. He doesn't hit with runners on base, he has some of the most brain dead base running errors, he drives me insane. I will give him his defensive has improved quite a bit, but that's it. He is so damn inconsistent he is either scalding hot or absolutely ice freakin cold, he is Dean Palmer all over again. The sabermatricians can have Kinsler they should watch the damn games if they want to see how unproductive he actually is. I would rather have Blanco as my everyday 2nd baseman at least u know what Ur going to get. I'm sick of waiting on Ian to realize how good he can be, and the people that jump on Ian for being emotional that's dumb I want my players to be pissed when they suck.
If you want Blanco as your everyday 2nd baseman? You are high! Every player has droughts and streaks. Blanco could never put up numbers Ian has. Blanco could never be a 30/30 guy. He can't even steal a base without planting his face in the dirt. Ian is what he is... a top tier 2nd baseman... at least in the top 25% of the MLB (Top 8 to me). Some of you guys need to go read the back of your baseball cards and get off of here.
Which 5 AL 2Bs are better than Kinsler? I am not a SABER head or 'nerd'...I am a former player of the effing game and know what a good ball player looks like. Does Kinsler drive me nuts at times? Abolutely! But I can also recognize the benefits he brings to the team...batting average is not a great stat for measuring a player, especially a guy hitting leadoff. The leadoff hitter is supposed to get on base so the guys behind him can drive him in...Kinsler does this. He also runs well and plays a spectacular 2nd base.
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