What is your opinion of the A.J. Pierzynski signing?
MJH on accountability
I am starting to think Ogando should be moved to the 8th as the heavy load and the heat seem to be getting to him. I don't think he has ever had this sort of work load before. Maybe this is a better move than overpaying for relief pitching when we have several guys in rehab who just might do the job. Save our valuable pieces for a very unlikely TORP trade, buy a closer on the buyer's market this off season and move Ogando and or Feliz back to the rotation next year after they and CJ work out for 6 months together on the off season. They need to put on muscle and work on their endurance.
If Ogando moves to setup it looks like Feldman is the leading candidate to replace him in the rotation but I am getting really tired of Holland's inconsistency. I do not think it is going to get fixed this year because I don't think Derek is mature enough yet. You can't fake maturity or pretend to have it when you don't. It seems like Harrison finally reached the point where he is confident and working hard to achieve. Maybe next year will be that year for Holland. Derek's focus problems show that he hasn't reached the point where he is bringing his complete effort and mental focus consistently.
Right now I want to see Derek at AAA because I don't see anything but flashes of brilliance in the cards for him this year.
That means we need another starter assuming Feldman takes Ogando's place. Obviously we ought to trade for a TORP if we can but that most likely won't happen so one of Tommy Hunter or Eric Hurley needs to step up and be the number 5 starter.
As far as the bullpen goes I think Rhodes will likely be cut and we will go with one lefty in Oliver for left on left situations:
1. Feliz (lock down closer)
2. Oliver (left on left specialist and more if need be)
3. Ogando (8th inning lockdown)
4. O'Day or Yoshi (whichever wins the spot for the sidewinding right on right specialist, probably O'day because he has proven he can pitch to lefties as well)
5. Lowe (he has pitched well and I think he will get better in a middle relief role that is more suited to him and he has been an anchor bullpen piece in the past)
6. Tanner Scheppers (we all hope for lock down relief from Tanner this year)
7. Long man is Bush, Hunter, Hurley, or Feldman (the odd man out after the rotation adjustments of replacing Holland and Ogando)
This would give us 4 power right handers with good stuff and location in Feliz, Ogando, Scheppers, and Lowe. In addition you have your left on left and right on right specialists in Oliver and O'day both of whom can face righties or lefties respectively if they have to. Then you have your long man which would be nice to upgrade from Bush to a Hunter, Feldman, or Hurley (whoever loses the rehab wars for the one or two open spots in the rotation) but not absolutely necessary.
One thing is clear to me: It is time in the next 2 weeks for swift and decisive action whether through trades or internal adjustments. I am partial to going with internal adjustments but if JD could work a magic trade where we didn't have to give up to much in a seller's market I would be open to that too.
One reason I am partial to the internal adjustments is because we can do those now and get better now. The trade market isn't ripe and may not be for a month or more. In the meantime we need to start jelling as a team for the stretch run.
Congratulations! Longest forum post of the decade! <hands trophy>
In all seriousness, yes. The pitching is played out & needs a serious makeover. Feldman, Hunter, and O'Day is a bandaid, I'm afraid - they need to upgrade somehow. Ogando is one way of doing it - so is moving Holland back to relief. But then you have a gaping hole in the rotation.
Trouble trouble trouble.
Michael Young still has that "hunger in the belly" and is consistently proving it.
And the winner for most obvious observation of the year goes too........ (Not todays Ump)!
I don't know what TORPs will be available, but if there are any, I hope the Rangers pay the asking price. In my opinion, the future is now. With another starter, Wilson/Lewis/Harrison will make for a pretty decent playoff rotation, and they could put Holland and Ogando back in the pen, which, along with the return of Feldman and ODay, would pretty much solve the problems there. But without a TORP, they don't have much of a chance of getting past Boston and NYY. So if they don't get a TORP, I think that they are signaling that they are giving up on a World Series run this year. That would be a shame, given that they are only 1 TORP away from being an elite team.
Ogando has had 2 bad starts. He's earned a longer leash than that. I don't trust the rotation without him. No sale on that one, especially when all it would cost to get K-Rod as a setup man is money this year.
I agree with Scooby on Ogando. It's not heat or workload that is hurting him. It's not like he's falling apart after 6 or 7 innings. In each of his past three starts he's been unable to get out of the 2nd or 3rd inning without giving up 3 runs. If he can't do that then he shouldn't be pitching at all. Whatever it is it's mechanical and I think you have to give him another start to work out whatever the issue is. After 7 straight wins he's earned it.
You also can't get rid of Yoshi. He's the only one pitching well here.
You are very right Scooby Dude although Jason Cole thinks it will take a top of the line prospect as well to get K Rod. I am not so sure it will take that much.As for Ogando, yeah moving him to the BP would fix the BP. But then instead of being one TORP away from a playoff run we will be two. Holland probably gives way to Feldman and goes to the bullpen. Hunter for Longman.What is Teagarden's WAR?
I think we may have better options in the bullpen than Holland. I think he will be wildly inconsistent there as well, and probably finishes the year at AAA. I hope I'm wrong and that he starts pitching his heart out but I don't expect it.
If we can get an 8th inning lockdown guy at a reasonable price then you leave Ogando in the rotation. But I've heard that it is a seller's market for relief pitching which makes moving Ogando more attractive and more likely the longer he struggles. If you didn't have the bullpen problems you wouldn't be talking about moving Ogando at all (not after two bad starts following on 8 or so brilliant ones), I think that is obvious.
The will for a TORP doesn't mean there's a way to a TORP. The Cliff Lee signing was a bizarre deal last year. Its not like you get a TORP if you want one, its more like you get one if you are lucky. Or are you willing to sell the farm for a TORP now.
I do not envy JD, Nolan and Wash right now, there are some tough as hell decisions to be made.
Well said Joe,
This absolutely has to be THE toughest trade deadline period in team history. We have a semi complete team that at times looks like one of the best teams in the AL. However overall we've proven to be quite inconsistent, and have just too many holes to truly compete in the playoffs. As i see it, the FO has two options: 1. Stay pat and ride the storm. make one or two minor trades for BP help, promote from AAA and see what happens. I still dont believe this team will lose the west, however I have serious doubts about their capabilities DURING the playoffs. but hey sometimes this is they way its gotta go. i know its unfair to compare sports, but look at the mavs. for years the goal has always been to put a team together capable of making the playoff and see what happens when they are there. Thats kinda what we have to rely on here. Watch them make the playoffs, hope CJ stays in form, maybe Colby repeats last year, and Ogando/Holland/Feldmen/Hunter, pulls magic out of their ass and we get series win or two.
Option 2. Again... i have little doubt we will lose the west. its gonna be close at times, sometimes too close, but i think we still come out on top. In this scenario the FO makes some kind of move to guarantee success in the playoffs. what that move is? i have no freakin clue. Last i heard JD was in Japan trying to steal Japans top pitcher right now. so who knows.
Bottom line, thats it folks. But Joe nailed it right on the head. I do not envy Nolan JD or Wash. Definitely some tough touch decisions a head.
Needless to say I just absolutely cannot believe its come to this. I wasnt as affected by the cliff lee loss. I knew losing hurdle would be tough. but getting beltre, bush, webb, and ganking napoli (boy i bet that pissed LA off. i had high high hopes for this season.
I think RFan might be spot on... I think we're one TORP away from a complete team, but as ive stated before... i just dont think this is the year of the TORP at the trading deadline. And they do not need to spend the prospects and settle for someone thats not gonna meet those qualifications... i'd rather rely on CJ and Colby and throw Ramirez out there in an attempt to catch lightening in a bottle.
Robbie Erlin might be the guy to replace Ogando or Holland if Feldman/Hunter/Hurley doesn't work.
He struck out 14 at Frisco tonight. If there isn't any room at AAA they should switch Ramirez and Erlin simply because I think Erlin is on a faster track and more likely to contribute this year on the big league level. Ramirez made a leap so sitting at AA for a second shouldn't discourage him especially if you tell him its just because they don't have a spot for Erlin.
All in all I think if we can improve our starting playoff four we should.
Maybe Liriano will be available at deadline?
I haven't had the time to follow the trade market, so I'll just accept the group consensus that there are no TORPs available. If that's the case, Ogando as a starter would seem to be our only hope at a serious playoff run. Feldman would be the only serious internal candidate to replace him, and that's probably asking too much.
So is there any precedent for a guy who has never thrown many innings to become a major league starter and then in his first year, contribute in the playoffs? Has that ever happened? If it has never happened, you have to wonder whether it's humanly possible. Maybe the Rangers can make it happen if they let Ogando skip a lot of starts in the second half by occasionally subbing Feldman or Hunter.
In the absence of a trade for a number four starter good enough to make an impact in the playoffs (this doesn't absolutely have to be a TORP but it has to be a really good number two or three or so) it would seem that moving Ogando would be premature.
But if he continues to struggle and it is ascertained that it is because of being tired out it would be ill advised to leave him in the rotation. Some are saying that it is his mechanics and not fatigue and the heat, but mechanics are obviously effected by fatigue. We will see if he can put it back together and unless Feldman REALLY has his cutter back I suppose we should be hoping he (Ogando) can stay in the rotation.
i'm completely fine with leaving ogando in as a starter under one condition. we start resting him some. not alot but maybe we follow the Latos plan (i wont go the extremes of Joba rules, but SD rested Latos more and more towards the end of the year. AND we know for certain that the reason for Ogando's recent struggles is due to struggles w his fastball location (again fixable w an extra day off) and not what i fear being that opposing teams are beginning to figure his routine out. Dont forget Ogando has proved to only have 2 effective pitches. Varying the speeds on these has saved his a$$ thus far, but over time that timing (weird... almost sounds like a double negative) can be picked up by opposing pitchers. hence why we are seeing Ogando struggle the second time through the rotation. as long as it really is a little bit of fatigue mixed in w some minor adjustments i feel confident. If his struggles are determined to be because he only has 2 pitches its time to cut our losses with him as a starter and attempt Feldman or Hunter (who have multiple pitches) and move ogando back to the 8th.
Not that i'm saying it is, even if this does end up being the end of Ogando the starter for 2011 he gets a standing O from the rangers nation. he's been a pleasant surprise and honestly saved this season from being so much worse than it could be. With some extra work and if he gets that 3rd and 4th pitch during the off season he's gonna be a devastating pitcher for opponents to face. He's already proved to be an extremely smart pitcher this year. face it... a dude with only two pitches has to know which one to use and what speed its a combo of smarts and cajones thats been lacked in texas pitching for a while. He'res to hoping he's still starting the rest of the year, but if not, here's to saluting arguably the best interim solution at pitching a team could ask for.
i'm just about finished with holland...when hunter, feldman and o'day are ready to come back (very soon) lets send derek down and put him on the trading block. kirkman needs to go down and rhodes needs to be released. ogando does deserve another chance or two to prove he belongs in the rotation. the good news is the rangers DO have some proven major league winners (hunter, feldman) waiting in the wings, so unlike preivious years, there are re-enforcements available
Holland wasn't bad at all today. He just had terrible luck. If umpire makes correct call at second, and if Teagarden catches two balls that even a high school catcher ought to catch, it's a nice start for Holland. Aside from the ridiculously incompetent umpiring crew, Teagarden was the goat today, not Holland.
Let's not jump ship before we get the boat in the water! Ogando spent five summers in the Dominican Republic pitching year round in the Carribean heat before he came to Texas last year. Are you really going to tell me that he is wilting in this heat? I don't buy it for a second. It's more likely the league has begun to figure him out which means Ogando needs to start making adjustments. Pulling him out of the rotation doesn't allow him to make those adjustments.
As for Holland. He has to be allowed to grow into his role. Yes he's is inconsistent but his potential much higher than Hunter or Feldman and there are no guarantees that they will perform any better this year than Holland is currently.
If your not going to allow your young starting pitchers to develop at the major league level then you might as well not draft any pitchers in the first place. The only way I replace any of the starting five at this point is due to injury. Outside of that I am sailing on the ship the FO built at the outset.
Maybe it just this "Watered down version of Baseball" I'm cringing about?Now MLB wants more expansion & a larger playoff bracket? Nice try MLB.
@jd21: Holland's line from Sunday's debacle against the Mets reads 6 innings, 12 hits, 7 runs (3 earned), no walks and no strikeouts.Regardless of how many balls Teagarden dropped or how many blown calls the umpires had, that's NOT a good pitching line. Giving up 12 hits in six innings, especially to a team hitting .258 coming into that game, is hideous.Derek Holland has tantalized the Rangers for the past couple of years. He'll have one good start then six or seven awful ones. He needs to be in the bullpen or at AAA. He was handed a lead in the bottom of the first on Sunday and promptly gave it away. He allowed two straight hits, a run scoring fielder's choice and two more run-scoring hits. A 2-1 Rangers lead evaporated into a three-run deficit.Holland needs to learn how to throw a shutdown inning. Instead of worrying about the umpires' bad calls, he should have concentrated on getting Beltran out. Instead, he allows the game-deciding hit.Holland threw the fat pitch to Beltran, not the umpires.
How does moving Holland to AAA or the bullpen teach him how to get throw a shutdown inning. He would overmatch any lineup at AAA and could easily fall into bad habits associated with pitching to batters below his talent level. moving him to the bullpen limits his exposure to the shutdown inning and also makes it easier to replace him when he gets in a bind. You never want a young pitcher to take the easy way out because that typically means he stops fighting and simply gives up at-bats. Perhaps he did some of that yesterday. I didn't see the game since I live on the other side of the globe but from what I saw on the in game chat forum the umpire was pretty attrocious.Hey, it happens and sometimes a pitcher works through and sometimes he doesn't. Even the best pitchers in the game are subject to loosing at-bats because of a poor strike zone or bad call in the field.
If a pitcher feels like he's being squeezed and not getting a particular edge on the strikezone then more often than not the batter has the advantage because he knows the pitcher is getting squeezed as well and can either sit on the pitch he wants like Beltran apparently did last night or take a walk while the pitcher tries to coax a call out of the umpire. I actually find it encouraging that Holland challanged hitters instead of trying to pitch around them and walking half a dozen. So he gave up 12 hits. Big deal. He adjusted to the strike zone he was working with and the Mets took advantage of the opportunity. Next time he has the same issue with the strikezone and chooses to challange hitters perhaps those hits turn into popflies and ground outs and he gets through eight innings instead of six. It's just the way baseball go.
Holland is having a decent year this year and has shown steady improvement over his last two years.In the end if allowed to stay in the rotation he will reward the Rangers for their faith. His stuff is simply too good to not allow every opportunitiy to succeed. Especially when you consider how exorbitantly expensive pitching is. He's still young (only 24) and has yet to enter his prime and is under team control for several more years. Why not let him grow into his role and reap the beneftis as he matures.
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