Great post on Kinsler, Joey. Very well put.

I've found Kinsler to be a great object for differentiating between old school Rangers fans and those that are up to date on the game. One side looks at pouting and jogging and batting average and concludes he's having a bad year. The other side realizes the insignificance of the mannerisms and "jogging" (however annoying they may be) and the uselessness of batting average, looking instead to more serious data such as WAR, UZR/150, etc. and realizes the guy is having a very good year.

100,
your post implies that only fans who kneel at the metric altar to worship statistics can possibly see the value of the season kinsler is having, and that fans that value the intangibles, such as leadership, sportsmanship, attitude are somehow misinformed. don't get me wrong...i totally believe in the value of statistics as a yardstick...what i am saying is that it takes MORE than stats to make the player complete. i would hold AJ Pierzynski up as a prime example of what i am talking about. his stats would indicate that he is "above average" at the catcher position this year. would you want him on your team? hell to the NO! Kinsler needs to stop dragging his a$$ around the field, cheer up, and play baseball the way he has been taught to play since he was in t-ball. trust me...when Kinsler's teammates see him sulking around and dogging it all over the field, it rubs off. negativity is contagious.

I think it's bizarre that people are talking about trading him (for J. Johnson) after less than half a season. He walks a ton and has a respectable OBP of 35% despite a .235 BA, he's on pace for another 20 HR/20 SB season, etc. Don't see anyone bagging on Cruz while he's only hitting .236. Offense throughout the league is down from last year and tons of good hitters are having down years, e.g. Pujols, Cruz, Crawford, Ryan Howard, Aubrey Huff, etc. Just need some patience with these guys is all.

I'm sparing w/ the Grim Reaper, Father Time and fighting off nightmares
of Angels at bedside reaching out. Kinsler is the hub of this team and I
am totally aware of all stats included in his 2011. He's a solid performer,
yet not perfect. Simply, Kinsler is one Ranger Player I'll never worry about.

Kinsler year to year is Forrest Gump's box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get. I'm still not quite sure on "what he is" per se, but there aren't too many 2nd baseman I'd prefer over him. You can always point to something each year that's an improvement on his game, although like many, I'd prefer his average to be higher. But whether it's hitting .319 in 2008, or doing the 30-30 thing in 2009, or getting his OBP up to .382 in 2010, there's always something to hang on to. This year it seems to be walks that he's added to his game in a big way.

I think he suits this team well.

@ Kristen the only reason trading kinsler was brought up was because the supposed Josh Johnson trade required Mitch Moreland. Supposedly, the deal was we were trying to switch it to Kinsler instead. So you have to ask yourself, who would you rather have? Kinsler or Moreland... its a VERY tough choice but if one had to be traded, the majority would probably choose Kinsler, he's older, at times frustrating, and appears to have plateaued. Essentially this could be the best we get from him. In theory, Mitch is still growing and could have a higher ceiling. Regardless the trade's not going to happen and we will retain both players, i was just trying to give you a view point of why ppl were saying to trade kinsler. nobody WANTS to trade kinsler, it was just that situation.

Further, regardless your view point, casual fan, regular, stats vs non stat, whatever you may be, nobody can deny Kinsler is a GOOD player. borderline great. Yes he's older, and its odd to say this about someone his age, years pro and experience, but it needs to be said... Kinsler is still an extremely raw talent. Not Defenseively. Defensively he's one of the best 2B in the league. you see players like Brandon phillips and Cano getting the Web Gems, but i would argue that for years, Kinsler has been one of the most consistently great defensive 2B, and having a SS like Andrus, and now a 3B like Beltre can only help. Offensively though is where he is raw. I would say he still has immaturity issues. not in a bad way like he's an ass or anything. Basically from my view point he cant make offensive decisions on his own yet. I think as he matures more he'll begin to get that. I think thats why his BB total is perpetually inflated year after year. He tends to just ride at bats out instead of finding his pitch. but then again this is something that comes in time. I also believe that he needs to be put in a position to succeed. I dont think a high pressure situation like LO will help his growth any. He needs to bat lower in the order where he can be a little more at ease not feel the pressure to absolutely get on, and who knows.... instead of his patented pop ups being a wasted at bat, they turn into sac flies. We can all agree he's shown flashes of what he can do each year. He just hasnt put them all together.

The time will come when it all comes together for him. and once he does youre going to witness the best 2B in baseball. He already has teh defense, he'll learn how to drive the ball in the field, and will learn to harness his swing and power to launch the right pitch out of the park.

Again... theres no denying that he's good.... i think we're all just waiting for him to become great.

I've seen several excellent ball players who had "bad body language"... Juan Gonzalez comes to mind. Last I checked he was a 2 time MVP. Kinsler is a competitor, thus I don't mind his reaction(s).They are not indicative of the team, nor do I believe they affect the team's psychi. At least he isn't aloof. The better part of 29 teams would take him in a heart beat. The line would form to the left. If he is the biggest problem and complaint that folks can come up with? I am a happy Ranger fan!

And if you want to convict Kinsler on numbers alone? Go back and look at some of the numbers Roberto Alomar put up at times. Or Craig Biggio... Or Joe Morgan... etc. And those are three Hall of Famers.

his stats would indicate that he is "above average" at the catcher position this year.

He's a +0.9 WAR so far this year and unlikely (at age 34) to end up above +2.0. So he's actually a below average catcher statistically.

i don't mind kinsler's body language. i actually kinda like it. so many professional athletes seem so apathetic, i know that's part of "not getting too high with the highs and not too low with the lows", but at least i'm pretty sure kinsler really cares about his profession and this team, at least i think so.

The time will come when it all comes together for him. and once he does youre going to witness the best 2B in baseball.

He's 29. He isn't changing.

He's a very good 2B. He's not going to turn into "the best 2B in baseball."

Robinson Cano put up a +6.6 WAR season last year.
Rickie Weeks was a +6.5 and has the 3rd highest WAR total for all position players since the start of 2010.

Kinsler do what he do and is what he is, and that won't be changing into a Cano or Weeks. But that's fine because he is a very good 2B.

sorry man but like always i gotta disagree. but thats pretty bold statement on your behalf to say that somebody else other than yourself can or cant do something. Its very well known around the league/median and even the clubhouse that Kinsler is still immature. there's been multiple complaints throughout the years of his tantrums and things like that. However as each season goes by you hear about it less and less. He's still figuring things out. and he still has room to improve. There are players that are late bloomers. look at what curtis granderson is doing this year compared to others. you can keep your numbers. i'll keep the faith.

Well stated 100. He is more than serviceable... he is a good 2nd baseman. As stated, if the best people have to complain about is Kinsler's occassional "slump shoulder" and "upper-cut-itus"? Then I am a happy Rangers fan! He do what he do and be what he be. But he will never be a Cano or Weeks. And DC06 - Players mature in two ways, i.e. as a ball player and as a person. To which are you alluding? His past numbers prove he has a grasp on the game. Kenny Rogers knocked over a camera man at 40 something, well after he had matured as a player. Kinsler is fine. He looks to Mike as his example. As long as he continues to do that, he will continue to mature in both ways.

I hope youre right ricky, and i believe youre right. my point to r100 is there is still room for Kinsler to improve. even at the age of 29 (happy bday shout out to kins btw). he's had four consecutive years where he's improved upon something, however the rest lacked. I think with that being said there is the evidence that he's capable of more, and as soon as he puts the pieces together in his head (it takes time) i think he'll be more than serviceable. He may never be Cano, but he can play at level above where he's at now. i dont believe he's plateaued and i do believe he can be every bit as good as Rickie Weeks, Chase Utley, and Brandon Phillips. Again, it may never happen, but ive got faith.

Well DC06, it appears he (Kinsler) has some time to do so. I do not see his successor waiting in the immediate wings. I'd like to see how Alejandro Selen looks in a couple, three years. I like that kid. He has the bat, he just needs to concentrate on defense. He is only 22 . He is in Low-A right now.

When I was a kid in little league one of the first lessons my coach taught me was when you swing, you keep your head down and eye on the ball all the way through the swing, none of this pulling your head out, swinging from the heels bullshit.

When I watch Ian Kinsler swing, I just shake my head and groan - is he that stubborn, or are his coaches that stupid (that they can't see what he's doing wrong)? It's a joke.

He doesn't always do it. But when he started the year becoming the only player in MLB history to hit lead-off HR in the first two games, I can see where mentally you think you're more of a power hitter than a lead-off guy. Not to mention being only the 2nd 30/30 guy in team history and only the fourth to hit for the cycle. I think he struggles with his true baseball identity at the plate. Defensively and off the field he knows who he is, and that is good... very good. Wash has him leading off now. Let's just watch his approach going forward. Cut the guy some slack. We have it far better than most @ 2nd. He is easily in the top 25% of 2nd basemen in MLB.

The only things i've heard as far as a possible kinsler "replacement" is moving profar to second and keeping andrus at 2nd or Vise Versa. Then shifting Kinser to either the OF or DH. no clue the truth to that probably just the local media merely making speculations regarding profars future since we still have Andrus who is arguably one of the best SS in the league and is slowly getting even better w his bat. interesting stuff. Good to know we have some good players in the future though. always a positive.

Isn't Profar only 18 and still down at low-A? Kinsler has a club option for '13 so maybe the timing works. Doubt Profar would be ready by '13 so maybe we exercise Kinsler's '13 option anticipating Profar takes over in '14.

Profar is probably 2 to 3 years away... at best. Andrus, not being arbitration eligibible, was signed to a one year deal in February. He will be arbitration eligible after this year, and is under Ranger control thru 2014. The fear for years has been Andrus in pin-stripes, as everyone knew Jeter was getting long in the tooth. The Rangers need to lock Elvis up, as he has no one waiting in the wings to replace him. You wanna limp along with Blanco 'til Profar is ready? Blanco currently actually makes more than Andrus due to length of MLB service.

Ricky,

you just scared the hell out of me. i hope that he wouldnt do that to us. being "raised in the Rangers system" i hope he has developed a hatred for the rival yanks. however money talks. Andrus though seems like the type that will stick around. you never know though.

@ Kristen

i hear what youre saying... definately if it has to go down like that its good to have a safety net like that. However, if i end up being right about Kinsler, in a few years he's going to be too good for us to not retain. and like i've stated before, i think he's going to develop (although late) into an upper echelon elite 2B who most likely will only be out played by Cano... thats my hopes atleast. we've gone over it before he has all the tools. and thats not just speculation, he's shown us them. just not combined together into one solid season. I think he will get it all put together and when it happens, watch out.

DC06 - Andrus has two years of service time and will not be eligible for arbitration until after this coming season. He won't be eligible for free agency until after 2014, meaning the Rangers have him "under control" for four more years, thus he ain't going anywhere soon. We'll see how Profar develops, who by the way, idolizes Andrus, yet ironically has better range than Andrus. Kristen - Kinsler is a good short stop. He has all 5 tools. Not just my words. A couple years ago he was voted in the top 50 MLB players by BBA. Two things in Newbergs MLB column today about Engle Beltre, rang true to me with Kinsler. Those two phrases or comments were: ..."it took some time for the physical and mental parts of the game to come together in a consistent manner," (Welke speaking of Jayson Werth) and "There's a lot of untapped potential in there. He has all the offensive tools, and can run, throw and really defend..." (Josh Boyd on Engle Beltre). Both comments made me think of our Kinsler conversation. Kinsler is good. Rest assured, he is a bigger cog on this sprocket than most give him credit for.

Obviously Kristen I meant 2nd baseman!

@ ricky

lol. best SS ever! btw.... you inspired me. Check out the allegiance forum... let me know what you think

It's your fault DC06! You got me off on the SS tangent to begin with. Glad I inspired you. I will check out the forum.