Ok.... so after our many forums and discussions its time to accept that this is not the year of the TORP. at least not for the rangers. And as far as the rotation is concerned from all i'm hearing from JD and Nolan they want to stay pat with our rotation and focus on the BP. That being said....

who do you think we can acquire to improve this team besides a rotation player. Anyone, any position. you wanna upgrade DH come up with a trade to get rid of MY for a real DH. wanna upgrade 2B, do the same. Want BP help, who do you want. THIS is the forum for you to be JD for a minute and say what youre going to do to turn this team around. Just tell us who we're acquiring and who we're getting rid of to get them. Go for it!

For example... Ramirez, Borbon, Engel Beltre, Profar, Lowe, Scheppers for Hanharan and McCutchen

Seems like we're givig up alot, but we upgrade our bullpen with hanharan, and we get a legitimite CF with true hitting capabilites in McCutchen. If he wont sign an extension we still have leonys. Is this enough to get it done? i'm not sure. However I think this kind of move is somewhat realistic while drastically improving the team. Not only will we have one of the best defensive infields, we'll have one of the best deffenseive outfields as well. and we woudlnt have to worry about debating hambone in center again.

again, dunno if this is too much or too little, and yall may not think it really helps the team out significantly. just and idea though for the kind of deals i'm looking for....

With that in mind, how about a Ian kinsler, M.Perez and Teagarden to the sox for John Danks who has now won 3 strait, a relief pitctcher, and a la Adam Dunn. Think of the ways to work that. ( relief pitcher could be Matt Thorton if negotiated is extended.

sadly enough we need catching help enough i'd wanna add AJ in the deal. but yeah... good thinking

I think ive found a decent trade that could possibly work for both teams.... We trade Borbon, E. Beltre, Napoli, Kirkman, and Mark Lowe, to the Cubs for Geovany Soto, and Kerry Wood, and Zambrano.

Right now the Cubs need a CF since Byrd is out, Borbon can fill that spot, and possibly for the future. Napoli is a good fill in for catcher. Beltre is a prospect that could still have value, Kirkman could still have potential starting potential, and Lowe replaces Wood. With Soto we get a reliable catcher for now and the future, he can call a decent game, has a good arm AND can throw. Wood has taken a role in the BP and has ran with it. his numbers this year are really good. Currently he's DL'd w a blister, no biggie. Zambrano was kind of a throw in cuz i didnt think yall would go for a 5 for 2 trade. Hell if there are ppl on this site willing to give Kazmir a chance we might as well give Zambrano a shot. If it doesnt work out we can try him in the BP or Padilla his ass. either way we get help in the BP, and we address a much needed position now and for the future. just an idea...

What's with all the talk about Hanraham and Heath Bell? Why is the one role everyone is focused on the closer right as Neftali is starting to fix whatever went wrong with him earlier this year. Can someone please explain this to me?

Dan, I think the idea is that closers are usually more desirable/available than current 8th inning guys. I don't believe that we would be looking for either of those guys to close, but to set up. Think Yanks signing Soriano.

A lot of y'all seem willing to part with our stud pitchers of the future for very average help now. IMO any of our top young arms should only be moved for a Cliffly type aquisition. Not for a #3

DCAg - I think da Cubs would love to dump Zambrano on someone, but look at the contract. $17.8 mil for 2011, $18 mil for 2012, and $19.25 mil vested option for 2013. Those are crazy numbers. First, no way Chicago eats that much money - it's the same thing as the MY situation. Why do you think MY is still a Ranger after all the nonsense in the offseason? Because no one thinks he is any good? Hell no. I bet just about every single team would love to add MY, but everyone knows he has one of the top 10 worst contracts in baseball, and no way are they going to take on that kind of crazy amount of money for him. And no way Texas just flushes tens of millions of dollars down the toilet. So it's extremely unlikely that Zambrano goes anywhere before 2013.

My point, which I keep trying to hammer into your head repeatedly in all these trade ideas you keep floating, over and over, is that you have to take into consideration the economics of it. It's not fantasy baseball. A guy's value is not just his ability on the field - you have to consider age, health, team, contract, FA status, etc. Especially the economic stuff.

Take a guy like Soto, who is really cheap at the moment, hasn't reached FA status, and is arguably in the top 10 for hitting catchers - and not bad defensively. Why on earth would they trade him, considering how much value they are getting there, and how weak the pool of available catching talent is? The only way they'd do that is if they have someone ready to take his job. I know they have a prospect, but is he ready? So that just makes no sense.

Kerry Wood, on the other hand, I believe is going to be a candidate for trade deadline deal - and he very well might wind up in TX.

To address Dan's question, I would say that most of the better, stronger, & deeper teams have an 8th inning guy who can move seamlessly into the closer's spot with little trouble if the closer happened to get hurt or start sucking badly. Texas doesn't have anyone like that since they moved Ogando into the rotation. So if they could add someone like Hanrahan or Wood, etc., they'd be a better team for it.

Regarding Bell, who probably isn't going to like being a setup guy at this point in his career, I don't know how that would work. But I don't think anyone questions whether Bell would help this team.

But having said all that, I agree with Adam that if you aren't getting primo talent, you don't touch guys like Perez, Erlin, Ramirez, Profar, and Martin.

I don't think anyone is saying Daniels is going to 'change face' and give up the farm
for any pitcher, be it relief, back end setup/closer or a TORP. It's not his style and
most understand his motives & moves. Improving the team, is his focus, as in a return
to the World Series. Whichever way he moves in that focus, will have the OK by the Org.

I like the title of this thread....very clever.

The trade market may develop more in the next few weeks, but I don't like the Cubs as trade partners. Zambrano is probably the biggest name and might have the best resume out there out of who's available. Plus the Cubs would probably kiss Daniels on both cheeks for taking him off their hands. But his numbers against AL clubs career wise are not great (8-8, 4.82 ERA). Plus he's one incident away from wearing a hospital gown full time and staring at a flourescent light all day long.

I don't like the notion of emptying the farm system for fairly common talent. I think the 8th inning worries me most right now. I'd be looking for the next Ogando (2010 version). My hope is that player is Scheppers, but that may be way optimistic on my part.

Why not just wait and see what Hunter and Feldman have to offer before deciding whether we need a TORP or not? Both guys could be back a few weeks before the trade deadline so they'll be able to get in a few starts each to show what they have before it comes around. Maybe we don't actually need a TORP but rather just a better back-end of the rotation.

As for the bullpen, improving the back-end would allow us to improve the bullpen at the same time since Holland has the stuff to be a legit setup guy. He could ease Oliver's workload. Also, Scheppers could be ready to go prior to the deadline so we can call him up and see what he has before deciding whether we need to deal for a RH setup guy.

@ WWJDD
and the point i'm trying to ram into YOUR head is these arent the same old rangers. These arent the Hicks rangers. Again i have to state to you, you have to give something to get something. Baseball without a salary cap is an imperfect system. it always will be. but the fortunate part of it being this way is you actually can throw economics out the window. Again i have to emphasize you have to give something to get something and vice versa. Here is another way to look at it. We can both agree that Soto and Wood would be great fits here. And yes, they are somewhat cheap players. However they are not going to just hand them over. even if we give them cheap players. There is no denying the Cubs number on priority this offseason is pujols or possibly fielder. their ultimate goal is pujols. However the cubs are one of the teams that is under a salary crunch right now. Again this goes to my you have go give something to get something (or vise versa) we take Zambrano of their hands. Yes the contract situation sucks. But in return they get some relief to help them towards their goal, and we get the two players we want, and possibly a third that works out.

I'm sorry you dont like my trade ideas over and over. but its your choice to read them. going further if you see my name skip my post, save yourself the head ache. We can agree to disagree, but I honestly think youre semi stuck in the Hicks era. Let JD and Nolan spend some money. Let them take some chances. Theyve got the money. And theyve got even more coming in with the Fox Sports deal. We're not money bottom dwellers anymore and its time to stop acting like it. now i'm not permitting us to go out and Hicks/Arod anything. I dont ever want to see that again. But i absolutely have zero problem with having Beltre's Salary, MY's Salary, and Zambrano's Salary on the books. I dont think this is going to stop us from obtaining our goals or even stop us from offering a decent deal for CJ. and if youre with the majority who thinks he's gone at the end of the year anyways then theres even less to worry about.

As i've stated before, i've known Nolan for quite a few years (not personally) just through an old job. Nolan is going to do what Nolan's going to do. Theres minimal Flexibility with Nolan, theres some... but very little. Look at the Lee situation, he wasnt comfortable signing a pitcher over 5 yrs. He extended to 6 unwillingly, but he stopped at 7. and that was that. Point is, if nolan wants to spend 100 mil on a player he likes (Oswalt) he'll do it. He doesnt care what you, I, or the media thinks. Same goes with he wont spend a dime on a player he doesnt like, no matter what kind of deal you, I, or the media says we could be getting.

We have new ownership and this is new Rangers baseball. But to say that a trade isnt going to work because of the economics of it is a little ignorant (i mean no offense by that btw). The teams that spend the money are the teams that succeed. unfortunately thats why theres no parity in baseball. every year you have that one random team that has enough young players put it together, but for the most part, its the big spenders that are getting the rings.

Its always nice to debate you WW, but this time... i think you need to open your mind... and your teams wallet a little.

taking on zambrano's contract would be a terrible idea. dc you act like we're the yankees and can just absorb terrible contracts. we've got one bad contract (michael young) and another pretty decent sized contract (beltre) with our best pitcher entering free agency next year and two of our best sluggers (cruz and hamilton) entering it in the next few years. soto and wood would be great to have, but we'd have to give up a whole lot and take on an enormous contract with a guy that i don't think would mesh well in any clubhouse. let's save that money and allocate it in ways that would do more to improve the team. spending money isn't always the way to win, look at the mets...how many pennants have they won since they went on that huge spending spree a while ago and got krod, santana, delgado, and beltran? very few teams can absorb terrible contracts and still win (bosox and yanks), we are not one of those teams. nolan balked at offering the 7th year to lee because he was afraid of having to pay a ton of money to an underperforming pitcher at the end of his career (assuming by the 7th year lee would be underperforming), why would he want zambrano, who is ALREADY an underperforming pitcher towards the end of his career that is owed a ton of money?

The point of this thread is the anti torp. i'm basically saying that as of right now it doesnt appear that theres ANYBODY out there thats either available, or that i'd give up prospects for. The point of this thread is to think of who's out there to assist the bullpen, or address any other team needs (cuz there do appear to be several) other than rotation pitching.

Kristen, you are right though, we might not need to trade for BP help if/when Hunter/Feldman/Webb enter the equation. And from what Joey showed us of Scheppers yesterday... we might not need to worry about a closer for the future or an 8th inning guy today.

However, it is obvious we need help at Catcher even with Napoli we have to start seriously thinking about the future. Its not teagarden, Max Ram is long gone. we need a good young Catcher for nwo and the future, hence why i brought up Soto. I would argue that we need a true DH, MYs numbers have steadily fallen as the season has gone one. Some people are tired of Kinsler and if they can find a deal to replace him and bring in some other assistance this is the place to do it. Its mainly just a post for people to find some feasible help for this team. Cuz JD.... sometimes he's not real great at that.... In the short term he nailed it with lee, but now we have the raw end of the stick cuz he's gone and Smoak is doing well, but then he struck out 3 consecutive times with Cantu, Guzman, and Frenchy.

I get what yall are saying. i just honestly disagree. i know we're not the yankees or the sox.... but i think its time to start acting like them. the difference btw the mets and the red sox, yankees is the mets dont take Calculated risks. They just spend money for spending money's sake. Ranger, i almost feel like you went AROUND all the good teams that spend money to win to find a team that spends money and doesnt. Phillies spend money, 2WS appearances 1 WS win, Red Sox spend money, perpetually in the playoffs, 1 recent WS appearance 1 WS win. Yankees, perpetually in playoffs, 1 recent WS appearance 1 WS win. White Sox, Detroit, i could go on. The only teams i can think of that Spend money and DONT do well are the Nationals (who just need time) Cubs, Dodgers, and Mets. The remaining teams dont spend money, never make the playoffs, and once every 8-10 yrs have a year where the youth movement clicked to make them contenders. Like TB. theyre playing well now, but theyre not going to make the playoffs. I dont want to be another TB. I dont want to be another Marlins team that Wins big and fades off into the sunset for 10 years. it just takes smart management. you can take on alot of money and still be smart about it. i know theres not alot of love for Zambrano, and like i said in my first post the point was not to get zambrano, but its the opportunity to help shore up the BP and get us a catcher for now and the future. To accomplish that we would probably have to eat it with zambrano. its a risk yes. But i actually think he might do well getting the hell out of chicago. in fact the entire chicago media think zambrano still has it, but just needs an out. but like you stated they dont think anyone will take on his contract. i simply offered up a solution to get what we need, and yes, take on a player most of you dont want. But i didnt offer one player that we couldnt afford to lose right now, and they are all players chicago would take, cuz theyre cheap, and it would help them pursue pujols or fielder. The trade could work. you just gotta take the risk.

You wanna be the best? you mimic the best? No... we're not the Yankees, no, we're not the Sox. We're the Texas Rangers... and we can be just as fucking good as them.

DCAg - Well first of all, we don't have the revenue of the Yanks, so it's odd to compare the two financially speaking. But the last thing a team needs to do is saddle itself unnecessarily with bloated contracts a la ARod or MY. Remember that Hicks used to be a free spender - one of the things that cured him of that was the stupid contract he gave to ARod, who was arguably the best player in baseball at the time. Zambrano is nowhere near the best player in baseball, and it would be utter foolishness to throw 45 million at that guy. We don't need that - we aren't desperate. JD and Nolan need to target assets - players who fit the system, the team spirit, and who will give us as much or more than they cost. Whether or not you feel the freedom to spend Nolan's money, it's not going to suddenly transform him into George Steinbrenner. We're not the Yankees - and thank God for that.

well atleast we can agree on ONE thing: Thank God we're not the yankees ;).

look i know you dont like zambrano and the contract deal. but honestly.... what do we do about our catching situation. Joey devoted an entire article to the issue yesterday but had no solution. nobody had one in the posts to that. so just think about it enjoy your lunch... and let me know what you would do to help us with our catching situation. but on this stipulation. i want long term and top half. dont tell me teagarden will figure it out, or act like napoli is a full time catcher. we have nobody in the system. YTs contract is up next year, and we'll add this stipulation... its my belief that you have to have a VERY GOOD (not elite) catcher to win in the playoffs as much as you need an Elite arm. The catcher is the guy who runs the show. Especially with our young pitchers. So how do we fix this issue. I went through everyteam last night trying to find a solution and its rough out there. theres a huge youth movement in catching right now. and unfortunately the rangers didnt draft well for one. and its going to be hard to trade for a young catcher. If you can find a way to get Soto from Chicago without zambrano lemme know. maybe you can think of a better package. i'd just like to hear how you would fix this issue. because it IS an issue. Also... if you or anyone could tell me the name of Mauer's back up last year? i think he mightve been traded when they got capps but i cant remember his name for the life of me....

Adam and WWJDD

That makes sense, I just would have assumed more of a Kerry Wood type rather than a current closer, who may not be thrilled about moving into a setup position (and I wouldn't blame them).

dc
if soto came with zambrano that'd be ok, but i don't see why the cubs would want to part with him for the reasons you just mentioned. you said the difference between the mets and the other teams were the mets didn't take calculated risks and spend money just for the sake of spending money. i don't think taking on zambrano's contract would be any more calculated than signing someone like johan santana, and taking on his contract would be spending money just to spend money. you listed the cubs as a team that spends money and doesn't win...well a lot of that is zambrano. i'm not saying we shouldn't spend money, i'm just saying we should spend it wisely, and there's nothing wise about taking on zambrano's contract. if soto comes that'd be great but i don't see it happening. i don't want to make a trade just for the sake of making a trade, like every trade last year other than bengie and lee. you also accused me of going AROUND all the teams that spend money and do well, but you only added one team to my list, the phillies. the phillies won their world series with a solid core of players they'd drafted, not a ton of players they spent money on foolishly. i'm not arguing all your other points, and i understand your point about having to give up something (money and prospects) to get something (soto and wood), but i just think we'd have to give up a lot of prospects and a lot of money (in taking zambrano's contract) and it wouldn't be worth it.

@WWJDD

one more thing then i'm done. you stated that youre we dont have the revenue of the yankees which is true. but you said it as if we have to worry about revenue. According the the Sporting Business Journal the Rangers are actually one of the more profitable teams (post Hicks) regarding revenue. Attendance is up over 10k ppl per game on weekdays alone, more on weekends. I read somewhere merchandising has gone up around 50%, and youre still not accounting the TV contract thats going to kick in. Also, youre also not considering that the last time i checked (one caveat i'll clear up in a sec) we were still in the lower 3rd in teams payroll wise. Now i cant remember if that was prior to or post the beltre deal so if its gone up thats why. either way i guarantee you we're still bottom half. We can take the additional hit. Can it be allocate elsewhere? of course? but you havent given me any alternatives. Its kinda funny cuz i can tell the age diff btw us, cuz i feel like youre a parent just saying NO without giving any alternatives, and i'm still trying to talk you into it lol.

@ johnny

i'm slowly wearing you down! lol. i agree with alot of what youre saying. but to me especially after last year, i'd rather make a trade involving current players and take a hit money wise than give up prospects. last year our farm took a major hit. Now our team is still very young for the most part, but when we're talking about CJ may not resign and stuff like that, we could probably have used one of those pitchers we gave away. in fact the ONLY thing making the lee deal NOT a complete disaster is the fact that we did make the WS (short term goal) and Moreland is making up for losing Smoak. Right now i'd say there neck and neck give the edge to smoak right now...

Now i'll admit i'm a little biased with this deal. i'm probably only one of like 5 ppl in this world that still thinks zambrano has a decent arm left. I think all of his issues are mental. and i think part of it, is he hates chicago, and i think he feels ostracized by his teammates. He has shown on any given day when he's focused he can still pitch lights out. earlier this year he had an 8 inning 2 hitter. Unlike taking the risk of say a santana where he's hurt and we dont know if he can recover... we know zambrano can pitch. thats not the question. the question is can he focus and not be a locker room distraction. I think with maddux's coaching, and again i have say the latin influence in the locker room would be a total 180 from what he's gotten in Chicago. Dont forget these Texas Rangers are a team that accepted Josh Hamilton, Milton Bradley, Vicente Padilla, and Adrian Beltre (who's known to have his quirks and hasnt always gotten along with teammates) with open arms and a clean slate. Padilla blew it, just as Zambrano could. But everyone else has worked out. Even Milton bradley had one of his best years the year he was here. Maybe i'm giving the organization too much credit, and maybe i have too much faith in a player that doesnt deserve it. i just think this would be a smart, highly underrated move by the organization

DCAg - CAN Texas afford to taken on Zambrano's 45 mil for 2011-2013? I think so. The question to me is why should they do that? Is it smart move? If you blow that kind of load on a guy, you had better be getting a great return - is Zambrano in this stage of his career worth that kind of cash? Hell no. Anyone who thinks so is crazy, in my estimation. Also, if you spend that kind of money on Zambrano, it's going to prevent you from doing other things, such as signing Josh Hamilton or CJ Wilson or Nelson Cruz. Is Zambrano worth more to this team than any of those guys? Again, hell no. You say I haven't offered you any alternative? On about 3 different posts I mentioned Lilly, who I think is around $11 mil for this year - 1 year contract. Half a season would cost Texas about $5-6 mil, and probably they could keep all their top chips. That would be a smart trade - that would make sense. Zambrano makes no sense.

The only thing I think that might make sense with Zambrano is to trade bad contracts with Young - but again, I'd rather have Young, and I think TX would too. I understand you have to give something to get something, but you also have to play the game smartly and correctly, or else you get played, you're a sucker, and not only that but you're a cash-strapped sucker in the same position as Hicks was before he finally dumped his share of the team. You also don't give away 10x more than what you get. That's stupid, and JD has built this empire by being smart, not stupid.

What I am bitching at you for is your tendency to throw out outrageous trade ideas that make utterly zero sense in real life. Nothing personal, man.

dc,

i meant it was a calculated risk for the mets to sign santana when they did. but yes, you have worn me down. i don't know much about soto, but assuming he's a good - to - really good young catcher, taking zambrano's contract would probably be worth it. our catching situation is terrible and i don't know a whole lot about our system, but i think the only catcher on last year's top 25 prospects (or highest ceilings) on bbtia (which has since been removed and we never got to see who the top 3 were! gasp!) was jorge alfaro, who's 19 and i think is in low A ball, is many years from mlb (assuming he continues to progress and makes it to mlb), and deglan is also 19 and in A ball and hitting .230 with 44 so in 126 ab, is many years away (if ever) from mlb, and catcher is obviously very important. so yes, if we get soto, zambrano's contract may not be terrible. you could just pretend you were paying soto some of his contract. and it's possible zambrano does just need a change of scenery.