What is your opinion of the A.J. Pierzynski signing?
MJH on accountability
Lets not and say we did...
Seriously? This is the best all around team the Rangers have put together...ever....but it never ceases to amaze me people want to move players based on every bump in the road.
Hammy for 120-130 games is a bargain at 12 mil. Ride the contract.
@ Tex Pantego, Ha Ha! Jayson Worth himself couldn't believe he'd be getting a Jason Worth-type of contract! The Nats are idiots.
Somebody will give Josh a big 4 or 5-yr contract if he can average 120-130 games over the next two yrs, and it won't be JD.
@Pull T~Joe!? Are U serious? I don't have to hide behind names. Been HubZ even on MLB.com.When I *have to sign in on DiscUs, I do have another. Hey, I post w/workable opinions, without attacking anyone. I don't say stupid things as, "Murphy man, with lady shoulders". I graduated out of the dorm life last century. Joey works hard for this place. Maybe some help from his friends to keep it a respectful forum? I like your humor though.
I'll still keep Hambone for my money. I like his 100% play. He's good forum fodder too.
Josh Hamilton IS a once in a generation TALENT.. unfortunately, as we all know, he did things that have prevented him from producing at that level consistently, whether it be injuries or suspension. We saw that talent express itself last year.
Drew, that is how I should have stated it. IF he had stayed away from drugs and had a healthy career that lived up to his abilities, he could arguably have been a once in a generation type player. I am pretty open with my love of Hamilton and that clouds my judgement. But the truth is, once in a generation type players don't have injury issues or spend time on a crack pipe...
Kind of like Koufax, Adam?
Short career with Injuries, but no pipe(which I'm not sure why that matters)He was 1st Ballot HoF, by the way.
Josh needs a couple of Rings to help cause.So far, he looks generational phenom to me.
ehhh, kinda. I see where you're going with the comparrison but Koufax had 4 consecutive years of amazing production. I don't see Hamilton getting in the Hall...too many seasons missed and now the injury issue (thats what I meant about the crack pipe - missed seasons that guys like Pujols or Mays don't have in their prime).
Generational phenom is fair. He has all the tools to be amazing and has shown flashes of brilliance. When he is right, he's among the very best who play this game. I know our lineup misses his bat right now...
I'm not as sure as some of you that he gets a big long term offer or if he even wants it. Does he even have full access to his money? I know when he 1st got back, Narron held his money on the road and his wife handled all the money at home because of the temptations. I think he's a guy that needs to be on the right team in the right town and I think he knows that. Fact is, he is a very unique subject and we really don't have much historical data with which to draw a conclusion about how this will play out. He may be the one guy who turns down more money to stay somewhere where his family is happy and he feels happy and safe. Or he could take a ton of money to be a Yankee then show up in the tabloids doing blow off a hooker during another DL stint. We really have no idea. Would 3 years for $40-45MM be a deal that he would take and we would offer assuming he gives a total of ~9 WAR over the next 2 years?
"When he is right, he's among the very best who play this game. I know our lineup misses his bat right now..."
Restated more accurately:
"When he was right, he was, DURING ONE SEASON, among the very best who play this game."
2008 wasn't a great season for him?
Ok, take Hamilton out of the equation.
I will rephrase the question to be...Should the Rangers look at moving one of Cruz, Kinsler, Lewis, or Wilson before their contracts are up and the Rangers likely lose one or more of them due to payroll constraints?
Too early to answer that question lipman. Maybe by the All Star break next year we can move Josh and get a great return. And we might be able to better answer the question in regards to moving CJ come mid June? If we are making a playoff run, we just can't afford to trade CJ (Unless you are getting another good starter in return...who would make that trade with us?).
My generic answer is: it depends. There are going to be different variables in play for each of the guys you mentioned. If we weren't trying to get back to the playoffs I think moving CJ this summer would be a foregone conclusion but hopefully we are buyers and not sellers.
I don't remember any mid season trades where a division leading team traded one of their best players in an effort to get better for the stretch run. Not saying its never happened, but I dont remember it... I guess one of the costs of winning is you have to keep your stars until their contracts are up and if they walk, they walk. Or you move them in the offseason to restructure the team based on needs.
No, Hamilton's 2008 was not "great." He had the 16th highest OPS in the league. His OPS was over 200 points lower than Pujols.
Like I said - Hamilton is a very good player and is very valuable. He is NOT, at this point, a once in a lifetime player. He isn't elite b/c he is an average hitter against lefties, he is hurt all the time, and he has only had one truly elite season.
Elite guys are Pujols, Manny, ARod, etc...
Utb...ok. 2008 was not all world. But it was pretty damn good for his 2nd big league season (did the hr derby bombs not count?). I think we agree on what he is but I am blinded by what he could be. I feel like I did with Bo Jackson...damn, how good could he be IF....? I've always been awed by guys who's raw skills and athletism is off the charts and that usually shows up more in the eye test than anything else. Seeing someone that size move like he does and hit the ball as hard as he does...well, it stirs the imagination. Ive already conceded (back tracked?) that elite players don't have injury issues, but I still contend that from the small sample size we have, that when he is healthy, he's up there with the best. I don't think his production last year was a fluke, but maybe his realative health was. He might never play more than 100 games in a season again. Or this might be his last stint on the DL (yea right).
I'm not rational with Hamilton because I'm such a fan of his story and his abilities. Just like I'm not rational with Marisa Miller...you could tell me she has faults and I would tell you to die. Know what I mean?
By the way, I think its sad that 2 of the 3 examples of elite players you site are admitted juicers. Not sad that you site them - they are elite - but sad that our generation is marred by the question of how elite they would have been without roids.
...but that's all this generation has seen, was the 'Roid Era~ 2006 up to Now, has been clean,rock turned over and free of substance and PED's. I'd be confused also, if all I had to comparetodays standards was 15+ years of "Swollen Ballplayers" & stats. Our Rangers, is a windowpeak of the past. Golden Era & Old School, where 40 HR & a below .250 ERA, ment something.Careful when you judge, unless you remember the early Greer, Griffey, G.Maddux, R.Johnson.
Compounding the issue of the Steroid Era is the fact that the late 70's and most of the 80's was a mild dead-ball era. Balls simply were not flying out the way they did from 1950-1975ish. So unless you're really old, you have never seen a ballanced, PED-free era.
Back to the notion of "generational talent", generational means something like once a decade (in sports terms). Does anybody really believe that, from a pure talent perspective, and setting PEDs aside for a moment, Hamilton really belongs in the same category as Pujols, ARod, Griffey, Bonds, maybe Manny, even (in a different sort of mold) Ichiro?
The best comp, to me, for what Josh brings to the table when healthy and right is a prime-of-career Jeff Bagwell. Nothing to sneeze at, certainly. A sure-thing HoFer in my book. But certainly not one of the best 1-4 players of his generation. A guy who is on the next (very elite) level after that.
I also think the Bo Jackson comp is nonsense. Bo never had any of Josh's refinement as a baseball player, but BoJ was an athletic specimen unlike any I have ever seen. I remember once he threw out a runner at home plate. From the warning track. On the fly. Josh is a fairly fast guy. Bo, had he stayed healthy and not played football, would have been a 50-steal guy he was that fast. Josh leverages up his power with good swing mechanics. Bo never had a very pretty swing, but it didn't matter. He once hit HRs in 4 straight ABs. WIth a 6-week trip to the Disabled List sandwiched in between HRs 2 and 3. Bo Jackson would have been the single most special RB in NFL history had he gone 1-sport in that direction and stayed healthy. He would have been baseball's first 50/50 man had he gone that direction and stayed healthy. He was the most amazing athletic specimen since Jim Thorpe, tragically cut down in his prime. A class by himself, a league of his own.
Dude, the comp wasnt meant to compare them as players or even athletes...the comp was exactly how you finished...what if? What if Bo had been just a football player and didnt blow out his hip? What if Josh never got in that car wreck and began the downward spiral of drugs? What if his career followed the path it was "supposed" to when he was drafted?
Bagwell? He was a 4th round draft pick. Bagwell had a better career than Hamilton will even think about but they don't really compare as far as pure athletics. From a pure athletic talent standpoint, yes he belongs with the guys you mentioned. Before they were drafted, Josh and Arod had much the same hype (as can't miss as they come). Manny was a hitting savant, dude could just mash. Pujols was a 13th rounder. Those guys are clearly much better ball players but from a pure physical talent perspective, Hamilton is right there or better. I am talking about pure talent...what God gave them. Not what kind of freaky hitters they have become. I am talking combine measurables and you are talking on field results. We aren't even arguing the same topic. I guess Im not making any sense.
Just think of what he did to himself and how long he was away from the game. Then he comes back and is an All Star. Do you know how freaky that is? That guy that was crushing 480ft bombs while hitting .359 was living in crack houses less than 5 years prior. That is phenom. Thats The Natural.
He definitely has an elite skill-set, but he isn't an elite player.
I just don't see how that ties into why Texas should not considering moving him.
utb - it doesn't necessarily, except for my selfish reasons stated previously. To your point, no player is too good to move if it makes the team better. Pujols is a perfect example this year. If St Louis determines that they cannot sign him this winter and they are not legit contenders this summer, they would benefit more from trading him than they would from the supplemental picks they would receive. The Cardinals fans would hate it but it would be a good business decision. But Hamilton is under contract thru next year and we are legit contenders right now so I dont think we should move him THIS year. We will hopefully be buyers in July and not sellers.
Serious question: has a contending team ever moved one of their best players at the deadline in an effort to get better?
It's odd or reality, that it usually comes down to money, in some way or the other.It's also sad that the reality is, Pujols has priced himself out of the StL market.Maybe that will be the case with Josh also. What will the Club get, in time played,for the contract money expected? One can quible, whether Josh is elite or not.I suppose the money dictates that view also. Hamilton has special gifts, that I have not seen in 50 years or longer, either by film or in person. His injuries are Mantle-like. Growing up, I always heard the 'what if's' of Mick's real talent upside. He was typical 50's, blond, blue-eyed, handsome hero,but always hurt. Nobody wanted to hear about his drinking & carousing... the fast life. Certainly not a toe-head kid from Oak Cliff. Kids now are no diff than I was, in the 50's.
The paralells are similar between Josh Hamilton & The Mick- certainly the talent & myth,of what might be or might have been. Generational Heroes, seem to fit in 1955 or 2010.I never wanted to see the crushing blow of retirement in Mantle. I want to see Josh...ONLY as a Ranger. Maybe the injuries or the money will dictate my dreams once more.
Notify me of follow-up comments via email.